Two Different Pivots (with pictures)

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jpvegas1

jpvegas1

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Location of the hub

mrodock

You are correct that the study was done with a driver. But the location of the hub is in the top part of the thoracic spine or chest area which is below the upper cervical spine. The only location I can find that they give for the hub is on page 35 -- the hub for morst players lies in the center of the chest just below the level of the shoulders. This would put it at just slightly below the base of the neck, but matches completely with the level Brian gives in this thread - between the shoulder blades.
 
mrodock

mrodock

New
jpvegas1 said:
mrodock

You are correct that the study was done with a driver. But the location of the hub is in the top part of the thoracic spine or chest area which is below the upper cervical spine. The only location I can find that they give for the hub is on page 35 -- the hub for morst players lies in the center of the chest just below the level of the shoulders. This would put it at just slightly below the base of the neck, but matches completely with the level Brian gives in this thread - between the shoulder blades.
Click to expand...

Center of the chest, yes, I actually recall that now. Thanks a lot.
 
tourdeep

tourdeep

New
Spike said:
If you are referrering to the look of the left knee then I can see what you are talking about. But in this example the left knee position is an effect of the shoulders turning more than 90*. If the shoulders only went to 90* then I don't think you would see this "sag look".

The left side "lean away" look is the look of the spine tilt and bend being mantained, imo.

It seems to me that one of the problems of the "real sag" comes from trying to get the hands to high in the backswing which along with the momentum of the club causes the club to move forward and the body to lean toward the target therefore collapsing the left side. Most try to counterbalance this collapse by pushing off the left toes to lift the left heel when they sense the club weight, speed and direction.

If the left heel comes off the ground as a result of the pivot it may have the "look" of sag but is probably just more coil or turn, as George Hibbard points out.

My only concern about these pictures is that if someone attempted to reach the top of this postion out of sequence some problems may arise. This is probably why Brian is not a fan of a posed position.
Click to expand...

Hi Spike,

I am referring to the top, the power package, on the backswing, anchored by a stable pivot base, ala Tiger, Ben, Daly, etc., to create the lean. And you bet, more turn.

I don't think the lean would be as dramatic, nor as powerful if it were pivot centered. As far as coil, I am not sure, cuz it all depends on the low side resistance. I think one can achieve max coil either method, but throw a more perceived free turn one might be in a better position for power, maybe a more free swing as it unwinds.

Regarding the hands, Hogan's hands are much lower relative to John Daly and both have sag. The difference between the two, not sure. Today, Tiger's hands are just ever so slightly above his head with the driver. Maybe old and new Tiger might show a difference with the amount of sag. Never gave much thought about the relationship until now.
 
S

Spike

New
tourdeep said:
Hi Spike,

I am referring to the top, the power package, on the backswing, anchored by a stable pivot base, ala Tiger, Ben, Daly, etc., to create the lean. And you bet, more turn.

I don't think the lean would be as dramatic, nor as powerful if it were pivot centered. As far as coil, I am not sure, cuz it all depends on the low side resistance. I think one can achieve max coil either method, but throw a more perceived free turn one might be in a better position for power, maybe a more free swing as it unwinds.

Regarding the hands, Hogan's hands are much lower relative to John Daly and both have sag. The difference between the two, not sure. Today, Tiger's hands are just ever so slightly above his head with the driver. Maybe old and new Tiger might show a difference with the amount of sag. Never gave much thought about the relationship until now.
Click to expand...

Hey my man,
Just so I'm sure about the sag, is it the soft look of the left arm?
 
tourdeep

tourdeep

New
oops, i did it again...

On the adam scott pics, maybe some semantics here, or my complete misunderstanding of the term left side sag. The green triangle is my reference point for both lean and sag. Italian says they are opposite.

To repharase, the "lean" is apparent in all of the top pro golfers that I have evaluated.

I'll review the Hogan analysis and/or put me on the straight and narrow with Brian's connotation of the term...

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?p=81273#post81273
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
To Clarify:

mb6606 said:
Anyone that thinks you need Brian's #2 pic to generate power is dead wrong.

View Sean "The Beast" Fister - RFP - Stationary head

Longest Drive 515 yds
Highest Ball Speed 218 mph
Highest Clubhead Speed 171.2 mph

http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/fister_side_clip.html
Click to expand...

Wrong is a pretty strong word, mb.

I have never, ever, EVER, E V E R, said you couldn't hit it LONG or straight using a "head dead still in the dead middle of the feet."

I just said that, in my opinion, WHAT PIVOT CENETR YOU USE should be a component.

In fact, by Mr. Homer Kelley's own definition of a component: it is!

All I ever said was that it has LESS USEFULNESS in the real-world.

I have seen golfers would had a "head dead still in the dead middle of the feet," be RUINED FOR LIFE by a teacher who moved them into a "Point between the shoulders pivot" when they should have kept well enough alone (THEY HAD A+ IMPERATIVES).

Also, watch making this change on....(nevermind, why am I giving aways my secrets).

I did say this: The "Point between the shoulders pivot" fixes more golfers and helps ANY GOLFER draw the ball.

About 98% of the time I teach about 5 very different pivots, but the "Point between the shoulders pivot," is the leader in the clubhouse.
 
mrodock

mrodock

New
mb6606 said:
Anyone that thinks you need Brian's #2 pic to generate power is dead wrong.

View Sean "The Beast" Fister - RFP - Stationary head

Longest Drive 515 yds
Highest Ball Speed 218 mph
Highest Clubhead Speed 171.2 mph

http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/fister_side_clip.html
Click to expand...

head dead center of the feet? I don't think so, would be interested in lines though. I'm curious if other's are seeing what I do. He has a REALLY wide stance though, that changes things a bit.
 
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H

holenone

Banned
Have A Center...Please

Brian Manzella said:
About 98% of the time I teach about 5 very different pivots, but the "Point between the shoulders pivot," is the leader in the clubhouse.
Click to expand...

There has been much ado lately about which Pivot Center to use: The Head (recommended by Homer Kelley) or its alternate, the Point-Between-the-Shoulders (referenced by Mr. Kelley, but not recommended). What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is the really important point: That the Pivot have a Center in the first place.

All art forms -- and the necessary Human Element makes the Golf Stroke an art, not a science -- need their grounding Center. Picasso was an accomplished portrait artist long before his 'modern' forms emerged. Does that mean his earlier structure and disciplines were lost? No. In fact, they enabled his artistry to manifest itself.

The Discipline of Art.

Think about it.

Western music is characterized by seven tones -- doe-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti...

Don't ya just want to hit that last repeating 'doe?' :)

These seven tones repeat in twelve keys, including half tones, from A to G. In other words, the tones sound the same, just a bit higher or lower. In fact, starting anywhere, these keys move progressively in a circle until they arrive once again in the beginning key. Each new key is exactly five tones higher -- ascending, the old 'so' now becomes 'doe' in the new key -- or descending, four tones lower ('fa' becomes 'doe'). Ascending, for example, think 'Twinkle twinkle little star...then begin your next verse -- and new key -- on the second "twinkle."

But at the end of the day...

'Doe' -- in any given key -- never changes.

What does all this have to do with Golf?

The Pivot has a Center...

Or it does not.

That Center can be the Head...

Or the Point-Between-the-Shoulders beneath the Head.

That Center can be located "precisely between the feet" (Homer's ideal) or 1/2 inch left or 1/4 inch right or pick another number.

Your call.

Just have a Center.

Please...

That's the message.

Unlike most all golfers on the face of the earth...

Please...

Have a Center.
 
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T

Toolish

New
holenone said:
There has been much ado lately about which Pivot Center to use: The Head (recommended by Homer Kelley) or its alternate, the Point-Between-the-Shoulders (referenced by Mr. Kelley, but not recommended). What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is the really important point: That the Pivot have a Center in the first place.

...

What does all this have to do with Golf?

The Pivot has a Center...

Or it does not.

That Center can be the Head...

Or the Point-Between-the-Shoulders beneath the Head.

That Center can be located "precisely between the feet" (Homer's ideal) or 1/2 inch left or 1/4 inch right or pick another number.

Your call.

Just have a Center.

Please...

That's the message.

Unlike most all golfers on the face of the earth...

Please...

Have a Center.
Click to expand...


Agree 100%, getting a centre is step 1, would make most golfers better without worrying about which one it is. I am still not sure which I prefer, I know my swing has a head pivot center, but a guy I play with is trying to keep his head still and it is killing his pivot, making him lose axis tilt and sway the hips, so I can see both sides working.
 
H

holenone

Banned
Truth On the Way

Toolish said:
Agree 100%, getting a centre is step 1, would make most golfers better without worrying about which one it is. I am still not sure which I prefer, I know my swing has a head pivot center, but a guy I play with is trying to keep his head still and it is killing his pivot, making him lose axis tilt and sway the hips, so I can see both sides working.
Click to expand...

Interesting things will soon be about, Toolish. Log on tomorrow and check out the Adam Scott Pivot Analysis thread.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
holenone said:
There has been much ado lately about which Pivot Center to use: The Head (recommended by Homer Kelley) or its alternate, the Point-Between-the-Shoulders (referenced by Mr. Kelley, but not recommended). What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is the really important point: That the Pivot have a Center in the first place.

All art forms -- and the necessary Human Element makes the Golf Stroke an art, not a science -- need their grounding Center. Picasso was an accomplished portrait artist long before his 'modern' forms emerged. Does that mean his earlier structure and disciplines were lost? No. In fact, they enabled his artistry to manifest itself.

The Discipline of Art.

Think about it.

Western music is characterized by seven tones -- doe-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti...

Don't ya just want to hit that last repeating 'doe?' :)

These seven tones repeat in twelve keys, including half tones, from A to G. In other words, the tones sound the same, just a bit higher or lower. In fact, the tones are exactly 1/5 higher -- doe becomes so -- or 1/4 lower (doe becomes fa). On the ascent, for example, think 'Twinkle twinkle little star...then begin your next verse on the second "twinkle."

But at the end of the day...

'Doe' never changes.

What does all this have to do with Golf?

The Pivot has a Center...

Or it does not.

That Center can be the Head...

Or the Point-Between-the-Shoulders beneath the Head.

That Center can be located "precisely between the feet" (Homer's ideal) or 1/2 inch left or 1/4 inch right or pick another number.

Your call.

Just have a Center.

Please...

That's the message.

Unlike most all golfers on the face of the earth...

Please...

Have a Center.
Click to expand...

Why don't most golfers HAVE a center (I assume you mean from release point to at least the follow-through) in your opinion, Mr. Blake?
 
S

shootin4par

New
Brian Manzella said:
Why don't most golfers HAVE a center (I assume you mean from release point to at least the follow-through) in your opinion, Mr. Blake?
Click to expand...
cause they dont load up correctly and in order to get to their left side they have to lunge, which destroys the center
 
H

holenone

Banned
Doin' What Comes Natur'ly

Brian Manzella said:
Why don't most golfers HAVE a center (I assume you mean from release point to at least the follow-through) in your opinion, Mr. Blake?
Click to expand...

They are untrained.

Or they are incorrectly trained.

The result is the same...

Habit executing its ignorance.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Not quite.

holenone said:
They are untrained.

Or they are incorrectly trained.

The result is the same...

Habit executing its ignorance.
Click to expand...

This is OBVIOUSLY an incorrect answer.

I will explain.

There are thousands and thousands of golfers who have perfect centers for the whole swing, centers that are as good as anyone ever did,but they have NEVER taken a lesson, never read an article.

They just "Do It Right."

Maybe they were just lucky.

But the question on the table is simple, Why do most golfers move forward through the impact interval, and from release point through the swivel?

(and btw, some of those golfers WERE TOLD to have their heads DEAD STILL)

Please take a shot at ANSWERING the question. Thanks.
 
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B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
So.....

shootin4par said:
cause they dont load up correctly and in order to get to their left side they have to lunge, which destroys the center
Click to expand...

I STRONGLY DISAGREE.

And here is why:

Some golfers have perfect backswings by my preference, or yours, or the middle of the feet head-still-ers, or anyones, BUT STILL MOVE FORWARD THROUGH THE BALL.

So why do you think they do it?
 
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