I agree with bantemben..there are diffferent styles of Pivot motion for different shots...There is no THE WAY or THE PERFECT PIVOT...There are Multiple Centers in differents Stroke...each joint has a center or axis of rotation....Can we start some new threads..All this Pivot talk is making my head... spin!!!
Two Different Pivots (with pictures)
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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shootin4par
New
and when your head spins, what pivot center is it using?The Return of NAT said:
Ahh...Let me guess the base of my neck?
How much does the head rotate around the base of the neck?
NONE
SOME
??????
How much does the head rotate around the base of the neck?
NONE
SOME
??????
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Well I know this is sort of an aside to the conversation, but does anyone have drills to keep the head back through the downswing? I've been trying to increase my axis tilt ("tilt my teacup") and think about rotating rather than hitting at the ball, but still have been having some difficulty.
Thanks.
Thanks.
I have another wrinkle that is rarely discussed but may play a role. My natural born with golfswing looks more like the picture on the left. Over the winter, I took a series of lessons from an instructor who was getting me to look like the picture on the right. IT was a tremendous struggle and it felt very awkward.
But.........here is my point. The hardest part for me was visual. I am a born LH playing golf RH. My right eye is very dominant. When I try to make a swing where my head moves to the right of center, I lose sight of the ball and while my motion looks more orthodox, my contact and consistency suffers.
I wonder if eye dominance plays a role in which pivot people naturally gravtate to. Jack was Left eye dominat and had no problem swivelling away from the ball as part of his takeaway. Tiger is also Left eye domiant. IIrc Ben Hogan was a LH golfing Rh and perhaps was also right eye dominant and maybe that is why he was more centered over the ball.
Food for thought love to hear your perspective on the eyes and dominance and their effect on the swing.
But.........here is my point. The hardest part for me was visual. I am a born LH playing golf RH. My right eye is very dominant. When I try to make a swing where my head moves to the right of center, I lose sight of the ball and while my motion looks more orthodox, my contact and consistency suffers.
I wonder if eye dominance plays a role in which pivot people naturally gravtate to. Jack was Left eye dominat and had no problem swivelling away from the ball as part of his takeaway. Tiger is also Left eye domiant. IIrc Ben Hogan was a LH golfing Rh and perhaps was also right eye dominant and maybe that is why he was more centered over the ball.
Food for thought love to hear your perspective on the eyes and dominance and their effect on the swing.
mrodock
New
mitchdoc said:
Certainly makes sense Mitch. As a left-eye dominant player that used to have a fairly pronounced flip I gravitated to having my head more in the center of my feet. As I get better at maintaining lag pressure and a flat left wrist through impact I will feel much more comfortable with the head further back.
Matt
tongzilla
New
Guys, check this out.
9-1-6 is a Head Centered Pivot. But doesn't 9-2-6 look more like a base of the neck center? I say this because Diane hasn't got much left side sag. But it may also mean that you don't need left side sag in order to perform a Head Centered Pivot. By the way, I'm using these photos out of context (2-R).
9-1-6 is a Head Centered Pivot. But doesn't 9-2-6 look more like a base of the neck center? I say this because Diane hasn't got much left side sag. But it may also mean that you don't need left side sag in order to perform a Head Centered Pivot. By the way, I'm using these photos out of context (2-R).
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Ahhh...yup.
This is how I decide if a golfer who canswing fromeither side, needs to be a lefty or a righty.
Great post.
mitchdoc said:
This is how I decide if a golfer who canswing fromeither side, needs to be a lefty or a righty.
Great post.
Well Brian perhaps i should have learned lefty but I grew up in a family of righties wth rightie clubs and play all sports that use 2 hands (baseball hockey) Rh for hitting/shooting. Ic an putt lefty no worse and see the line better.
I feel like an utter spaz LH so RH I will stay.
I currently play to a 5 hcp with ball striking as a strength and short game as a weakness. I am 5'8 160 not in best shape but still put it out about 260 carry off the tee and hit a typical 8 iron 150 on the fly.
I have learned from you and others that distance off the tee comes from applying the forces correctly which in fact is all Homer really toaught. He if I can simplify and bastardize, was an engineer who deals with forces. He learned rather quick that radial acceleration, angular momentum and the multiplication of force using levers is where the power of the golf swing comes in and he then cataloged the different components that could be assembled to make use of these.
I agree with you that the picture on the right in the sequence looks better and for many golfers might produce better results. I do think that from an optics point of view it is a much harder swing to perform if you are storngly right eye dominant. Look at the picture your right eye cant see the ball. This makes consistent centerface contact a bit harder and when a club that has a quarter size sweet spot is flying at the inside aft of the ball at over a 100 mph you need all the help you can get to make sure you know where to direct those forces.
I feel like an utter spaz LH so RH I will stay.
I currently play to a 5 hcp with ball striking as a strength and short game as a weakness. I am 5'8 160 not in best shape but still put it out about 260 carry off the tee and hit a typical 8 iron 150 on the fly.
I have learned from you and others that distance off the tee comes from applying the forces correctly which in fact is all Homer really toaught. He if I can simplify and bastardize, was an engineer who deals with forces. He learned rather quick that radial acceleration, angular momentum and the multiplication of force using levers is where the power of the golf swing comes in and he then cataloged the different components that could be assembled to make use of these.
I agree with you that the picture on the right in the sequence looks better and for many golfers might produce better results. I do think that from an optics point of view it is a much harder swing to perform if you are storngly right eye dominant. Look at the picture your right eye cant see the ball. This makes consistent centerface contact a bit harder and when a club that has a quarter size sweet spot is flying at the inside aft of the ball at over a 100 mph you need all the help you can get to make sure you know where to direct those forces.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
mitchdoc said:
I'm a natural lefty as well and play right handed and also am right eye dominant. I don't have any issues, it sounds to me like you are moving too far to the right on the backswing and swaying.
birdie_man
New
Wow cool stuff bout the eyes. Ya if I close my left eye and swing I can't see the ball at the top. (I'm RH)
....
I think it does depend on what sequence you look at...and what club he has in his hands....and what kind of shot he's hitting.
....
I think it does depend on what sequence you look at...and what club he has in his hands....and what kind of shot he's hitting.
EdStraker
New
mrodock said:
Studies have been done in this area. If I have time later today, I will try to find the links for them.
For example, in trap shooting, a cross-dominant person(e.g. left eye dominant, right handed or vice-versa) can close the dominant eye and rely on the other eye for aiming. However, the dominant eye determines location of an object quicker than the non-dominant eye, so a left-eye dominant right handed person would be better off learning to shoot left handed.
bantamben2
Banned
Brian I just wanted to clarify what i said about the two pictures one being better for short irons one for long. On closer inspection i noticed that in your picture with more axis tilt you have that upper part of your spine sway off the ball, that looks horribleto me, now you have to somehow get back to it i see no benefit in swinging that way. I believe the easier less compensating way would be to set up with more axis tilt than turn around your spine keeping a stationary head. Seems to me what i do and a much more predictable move.
Also what is up with both arms almost being bent 90 degrees is that what you teach the harry vardon pattern. Especially if your gonna pose a top of swing position lets get it kinda looking decent.
Also what is up with both arms almost being bent 90 degrees is that what you teach the harry vardon pattern. Especially if your gonna pose a top of swing position lets get it kinda looking decent.
Brian Manzella said:These are two pictures of me that I posed today.
I am not the biggest fan of posed pictures, but I wanted to get them as close to exactly right as possible. With the help of my student Adam Mallory, I did just that.
The picture on the left is a Top of the Backswing with the Center of my Head in the center of my stance, as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.
The picture on the right is a Top of the Backswing with the Piont between my Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.
I have taught both over my 25 years of teaching, but it no secret that I prefer the Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.
Here is my THESIS:
Which top of the backswing postion, would, if if were universally accepted by all golfers worldwide, produce the lowest "World Handicap" and the most PGA Tour caliber players?
In my opinion, it is the Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot, PIVOT.
There are many reasons why I feel this way, but the #1 reason is that it is easier to do, easier to make a proper downswing from, give a better track to the inside of the ball, and produces better golfers overall with less back stress.
Obviously, the other pivot is perfectly valid option, but for the most part, again in my opinion, favors a stroke pattern (swing) that works more UNDER the sweetspot on the downswing and hense, more of a fade or hold shot.
Since 80% of all golfers or more are slicers, AND tour players in the Hall-of -Fame and on top of the money list are and have used a pivot either exactly like or much closer to my preference, I think it speaks for itself.
But, we like other opinions, so I open up the floor.
Remember the question: Which top of the backswing postion, would, if if were universally accepted by all golfers worldwide, produce the lowest "World Handicap" and the most PGA Tour caliber players?
I remind everyone of our new policy, just discuss the mechanics, not any teachers.
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bantamben2
Banned
Brian I just wanted to clarify what i sadi about the two pictures one being better for short irons one for long. On closer inspection i noticed that in your picture with more axis tilt you have that uper part of your spine sway off the ball, that looks horribbly know you have to somehow get back to it i see no benefit in swinging that way. I believe the easier less compensating way would be to set up with more axis tilt than turn around your spine keeping a stationary head seems to me what i do and a much more predictable move.
Also what is up with both arms almost being bent 90 degrees is that what you teach the harry vardon pattern. Especially if your gonna pose a top of swing position lets get it kinda looking decent.
Also what is up with both arms almost being bent 90 degrees is that what you teach the harry vardon pattern. Especially if your gonna pose a top of swing position lets get it kinda looking decent.
Brian Manzella said:These are two pictures of me that I posed today.
I am not the biggest fan of posed pictures, but I wanted to get them as close to exactly right as possible. With the help of my student Adam Mallory, I did just that.
The picture on the left is a Top of the Backswing with the Center of my Head in the center of my stance, as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.
The picture on the right is a Top of the Backswing with the Piont between my Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.
I have taught both over my 25 years of teaching, but it no secret that I prefer the Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.
Here is my THESIS:
Which top of the backswing postion, would, if if were universally accepted by all golfers worldwide, produce the lowest "World Handicap" and the most PGA Tour caliber players?
In my opinion, it is the Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot, PIVOT.
There are many reasons why I feel this way, but the #1 reason is that it is easier to do, easier to make a proper downswing from, give a better track to the inside of the ball, and produces better golfers overall with less back stress.
Obviously, the other pivot is perfectly valid option, but for the most part, again in my opinion, favors a stroke pattern (swing) that works more UNDER the sweetspot on the downswing and hense, more of a fade or hold shot.
Since 80% of all golfers or more are slicers, AND tour players in the Hall-of -Fame and on top of the money list are and have used a pivot either exactly like or much closer to my preference, I think it speaks for itself.
But, we like other opinions, so I open up the floor.
Remember the question: Which top of the backswing postion, would, if if were universally accepted by all golfers worldwide, produce the lowest "World Handicap" and the most PGA Tour caliber players?
I remind everyone of our new policy, just discuss the mechanics, not any teachers.
Millrat
New
Brian Manzella said:
Brian, this might seem like a bit of a leap but, could it be said that the "Point between the shoulders pivot" fixes more golfers is because they have less skill/talent?
Are higher skilled players more suited to head centered pivot? i.e. players with A+ imperatives.
CW
birdie_man
New
Millrat....
From reading Brian's posts...
About a bse of neck pivot....Brian feels:
-it fixes more players....slicers and people with untrained pivots....because a "tripod" type pivot will be too close to a reverse pivot for them...and also if they move their heads back it's easier to tilt
-it's more dynamic
-you're already tilted....so you don't have to tilt as much
-easier on the back
-more tour players and great tour players throughout history have had success with it
From reading Brian's posts...
About a bse of neck pivot....Brian feels:
-it fixes more players....slicers and people with untrained pivots....because a "tripod" type pivot will be too close to a reverse pivot for them...and also if they move their heads back it's easier to tilt
-it's more dynamic
-you're already tilted....so you don't have to tilt as much
-easier on the back
-more tour players and great tour players throughout history have had success with it
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birdie_man
New
As for this:
No. Not all. Maybe some.
No. Not all. Maybe some.
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