Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Niblick, what was the mistaken impression you had?
TWO NEW FREE VIDEOS on the Pivot and the Release by Brian Manzella
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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I consider myself a detailed oriented person. So the "lost in semantics" is hard to believe. I'll just leave it for those who actually watch the modern day Tour player and see where the lead knee bends / collapses. In fact the hacker who bends/ collapses their lead knee laterally back towards their rear knee, leg or foot would be better off practicing with a basketball between their legs to prevent the lead knee from collapsing.
Again, watch todays Pro's and either believe me or your lying eyes.
Several things actually.
I didn't realize how low your hands might be before you start to push the clubhead out towards the wall late in the downswing, and I didn't understand how the direction of force and amount/timing of arm rotation were different in early part of the downswing vs. later and how that might relate to some later rotation and force across the shaft late in the downswing before going normal. Sometimes I play much better when opening the face more in my backswing as I feel like it gives me more time in the transition -- now I see how that might work.
Watching Brian's McIlroy analysis, I also see how maybe you can use your shoulders to help the first move in the backswing to help avoiding jacknifing early -- kind of an early away from target tumble of sorts.
When I try experimenting with these things, I find myself swinging flatter, more from inside on the downswing, which I think may help with my tendency to hit very high spinny shots, not having much slide or time in my transition and having misses that tend to be pulls also.
Don't know if any of that makes sense. So far I've not had much range time to really work it out in detail.
By the way, I have definitely improved my dreadful wedge play most since starting to work on my flick/going normal. I think my handle dragging was far worse on wedges than driver/hybrids. Not sure why. Maybe just a case of dragging and hitting some fat shots and thinking the cure was more dragging (which only worsened the problem)?
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Dariusz J.
New member
It's beyond my belief how one can consider himself a "detailed oriented person" and cannot read with understanding. I told you very strictly that I DO NOT CARE ABOUT TODAY'S PROS. I CARE ABOUT THE BEST BALLSTRIKERS EVER FROM YESTERYEAR WHOM TODAY'S PROS COULDN'T POLISH SHOES CORRECTLY. And for the last time - the latter allowed to bend their lead knees inside in a very natural way as an unintentional consequence of previously taken correct motion.
How my eyes can be lying then ? Again, think !
Cheers
BrendanC
New
With the new release I have widened my stance a good bit.
Previously, when hitting well, I can fall into trap of having ball too far forward, and getting a narrow stance.
You can get away with it on a good day but it is damn dangerous as it leads to shooting the hips way out in front of ball during the downswing - with the shoulders hanging back. Basically, it opens up a big channel for inside-out release/skanks. I also think having the ball too far forward also encourages that move.
Wider stance (and being a little more methodical and calm during DS) helped a lot. Think it might also encourage proper weight shift - i.e. making sure you get on the right foot in the backswing.
Wider stance also gives me more of a upright backswing - as it prevents that 'suck to the inside early' thing you get with a v.narrow stance (Furyk).
Previously, when hitting well, I can fall into trap of having ball too far forward, and getting a narrow stance.
You can get away with it on a good day but it is damn dangerous as it leads to shooting the hips way out in front of ball during the downswing - with the shoulders hanging back. Basically, it opens up a big channel for inside-out release/skanks. I also think having the ball too far forward also encourages that move.
Wider stance (and being a little more methodical and calm during DS) helped a lot. Think it might also encourage proper weight shift - i.e. making sure you get on the right foot in the backswing.
Wider stance also gives me more of a upright backswing - as it prevents that 'suck to the inside early' thing you get with a v.narrow stance (Furyk).
Slightly confused: Tangent to what?
I enjoyed both videos and rewatched "The Release" last night as I was confused by the McIlroy "arrows".
What are we applying force tangential to? I thought the circle/arc of the swing, but I suppose that doesn't make sense. Those arrows early/middle of the downswing however are approximately normal to the circle shown. That matches the videos and Release thread's description of moving the club away from the target, but I'm still confused about what curve the force is supposed to be at tangents to?
Sorry, I'm sure I even read this earlier, but I've missed or forgotten it.
I enjoyed both videos and rewatched "The Release" last night as I was confused by the McIlroy "arrows".
What are we applying force tangential to? I thought the circle/arc of the swing, but I suppose that doesn't make sense. Those arrows early/middle of the downswing however are approximately normal to the circle shown. That matches the videos and Release thread's description of moving the club away from the target, but I'm still confused about what curve the force is supposed to be at tangents to?
Sorry, I'm sure I even read this earlier, but I've missed or forgotten it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I put the arrows up on this video to depict what the forces feel like to the golfer.
(The early force is tangent to the hand path)
if you look at these swings, it looks to me like left knee move towards the right, during the back swing, some more than others
Bubba Watson Driver Slo-Mo - YouTube
Charl Schwartzel Driver FO Slow Motion Golf Swing - YouTube
RORY MCILROY SLOW MOTION 16TH ST ANDREWS DUNHILL LINKS 300909 - YouTube
sergio garcia driver face on slow motion - YouTube
Adam Scott Slow Motion Golf Swing Vision - YouTube
Rory Mcilory Slow Motion Dubai 2011 Driver 17. Tee - YouTube
World No.1 Luke Donald Driver FO Slow Motion Golf Swing US Open 2011 - YouTube
Bubba Watson Driver Slo-Mo - YouTube
Charl Schwartzel Driver FO Slow Motion Golf Swing - YouTube
RORY MCILROY SLOW MOTION 16TH ST ANDREWS DUNHILL LINKS 300909 - YouTube
sergio garcia driver face on slow motion - YouTube
Adam Scott Slow Motion Golf Swing Vision - YouTube
Rory Mcilory Slow Motion Dubai 2011 Driver 17. Tee - YouTube
World No.1 Luke Donald Driver FO Slow Motion Golf Swing US Open 2011 - YouTube
It looks to me like it (lead knee) bends toward the ball with very little lateral collapse. Then the lead knee bows out toward the target in the downswing. If it collapsed inward toward the rear leg in would be even harder to bow the lead leg out toward the target in the downswing, which they all effectively do. It's all a moot point anyway, Dariusz J. doesn't watch modern day Tour players. He's stuck in a time warp watching the great players of old.
Dariusz J.
New member
Actually,you cannot be farther from truth. Benefitting from the natural body limitations brings at least partial automatism to the next motion event. Imagine a wall that the joint bounces from with gained momentum - the knee will have no option left but to lead the parade and bow outside without any conscious thoughts. Bowing the joint in has a very small RoM when the lead foot is being positioned optimally (flared out ca. 25-30 degrees).
That's how the creation of famous squat becomes possible because the rear side (rear knee) remains inertial and the distance between knee joints of both legs must increase.
Not mentioning here how it is easier to perform a proper CoG shift in the pelvic area.
Of course one can do it all consciously, like trying to bow out the knee from neutral position - but why make everything harder ?
Cheers
drewyallop
New
Me too. I widened a lot, at first to maintain balance, the downswing torques being a lot greater. But it has also had other path benefits.
Dariusz J.
New member
This is how the most famous squat looks like - observe carefully what preceeded it and imagine the unintentional sequence of biokinetical events:
The man was in his 60-ies while performing this swing. Can you see a better action today of 30-years' younger pros ?
Have a great holidays.
The man was in his 60-ies while performing this swing. Can you see a better action today of 30-years' younger pros ?
Have a great holidays.
Hi there, good day to all. My first time posting here. I searched for a member intro area but could not find it, so by way of intro, I'm a latecomer to this wonderful game. Picked it up about 2 years ago at the ripe old age of 42, and been doing everything I can to catch up since then.
Been lurking on this board for ages, and finally learnt enough about the swing to make some sense of the advanced techniques being discussed here.
Watched the 2 videos in this thread, went to the range yesterday and tried the "right hand pushing against the wall" feeling in the downswing. And as many here would expect from trying out any of Brian's many teachings by now, amazement. Using a car as an analogy, it was like going from front wheel drive (handle dragging) to four wheel drive (right arm supplying slight push to both power and stabilize).
A four-wheel drive car going round a corner is much more stable than either front wheel drive or rear wheel drive cars. And it's the same sense of stable, balanced power that I get with this move.
My sincere thanks to Brian and generosity in sharing this information. In my humble opinion, you and your team are leaders in the application of leading edge knowledge and technology, applied to the golf swing. This board is where I come to get up to speed.
Just a small question if I may, not trying to step on toes, but rather genuinely curious to learn, how would this compare and contrast with the right arm "extensor action" in that other school of thought in golf?
Many thanks again, and happy holidays.
Been lurking on this board for ages, and finally learnt enough about the swing to make some sense of the advanced techniques being discussed here.
Watched the 2 videos in this thread, went to the range yesterday and tried the "right hand pushing against the wall" feeling in the downswing. And as many here would expect from trying out any of Brian's many teachings by now, amazement. Using a car as an analogy, it was like going from front wheel drive (handle dragging) to four wheel drive (right arm supplying slight push to both power and stabilize).
A four-wheel drive car going round a corner is much more stable than either front wheel drive or rear wheel drive cars. And it's the same sense of stable, balanced power that I get with this move.
My sincere thanks to Brian and generosity in sharing this information. In my humble opinion, you and your team are leaders in the application of leading edge knowledge and technology, applied to the golf swing. This board is where I come to get up to speed.
Just a small question if I may, not trying to step on toes, but rather genuinely curious to learn, how would this compare and contrast with the right arm "extensor action" in that other school of thought in golf?
Many thanks again, and happy holidays.
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Hi Dariusz J.,
Having read many of your postings in several discussion boards, I have learnt to pay close attention when you are making a point. In my session at the range working on my driver yesterday, I discovered that when I consciously make my left knee (I am right handed) kick in in the back swing, it supplied additional power to the lead side of my lower body. That made the shift more automatic, and the lead side leading by default. Coming back and re-reading this thread, I found your post above which already described what I felt.
In addition, I may be mistaken, but it seemed to reduce the stress on my left knee in the transition. Without this move, when I try too hard to fire my lower left side, my left knee sometimes hurt after a while.
So, many thanks for sharing your knowledge. You are a beacon.
Happy Holidays.
mgranato
New
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The "extensor action theory" says that there will be a steady push out—below plane—from address to the finish.
Doing it as recommended would destroy the Nesbit Hub path analysis move.
Not enough slack at the top, fighting the through the wall torque, hampering the "go to normal."
Yikes!
Makes sense in light of the tendency to otherwise through the hands at that ball. Thanks!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
You're certainly up to speed with irons.
Welcome
I'd prefer to be as pleased with my swing, but at the moment, I settle for being pleased w my irons. Thank you for the nice welcome.
Brian,
I am impressed with both the speed and clarity of the reply, while simultaneously amazed that I actually understand it (I think) w my limited knowledge. If I am not mistaken, Nesbit's optimized hub path calls for a slight drop in the path of the hands at the start of the downswing. I think I see this 'drop' in Sergio's swing, which is why I guess his swing is praised here.
Thank you for the clarity.
Dariusz J.
New member
Hi Dariusz J.,
Having read many of your postings in several discussion boards, I have learnt to pay close attention when you are making a point. In my session at the range working on my driver yesterday, I discovered that when I consciously make my left knee (I am right handed) kick in in the back swing, it supplied additional power to the lead side of my lower body. That made the shift more automatic, and the lead side leading by default. Coming back and re-reading this thread, I found your post above which already described what I felt.
In addition, I may be mistaken, but it seemed to reduce the stress on my left knee in the transition. Without this move, when I try too hard to fire my lower left side, my left knee sometimes hurt after a while.
So, many thanks for sharing your knowledge. You are a beacon.
Happy Holidays.
Thank you.
It is not odd at all that you feel your lead side has been accompanied by additional power - it is exactly the momentum it gained with the same vector of orientation that your lead side needs. Exactly the same situation (albeit less dynamic because there is no such a rapid change of orientation of the motion as during the transition) occurs when you trigger the motion from static position. You create a momentum to accompany and enhance the backswing power.
You will see soon that there is no more need to kick the lead knee consciously - it will (and should) happen unintentionally if you let natural flow of kinetic energy happen.
Merry Christmas.
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