Ultimate Hogan

[thefuture37]

Who says "its impossible to know"? Nicklaus thinks he "knows": he's played with Hogan, and obviously gets to see Woods play, and he says it is Hogan, hands down.

How is what Nicklaus thinks proving one thing or another?

If its possible to know something about a dead man when there were no tour stats in his playing days, then you show me. Hogan hit it great, and had a great swing(s). Tiger hits it great too, and has a great swing(despite what you may think). I'm not saying Tiger hits it better, I'm saying its impossible to definitely know one way or the other.

 

[birdie_man]

Heavens....lol.....

 

[jeffy]

How is what Nicklaus thinks proving one thing or another?

If its possible to know something about a dead man when there were no tour stats in his playing days, then you show me. Hogan hit it great, and had a great swing(s). Tiger hits it great too, and has a great swing(despite what you may think). I'm not saying Tiger hits it better, I'm saying its impossible to definitely know one way or the other.

And I'm saying that is a totally lame-ass opinion. Nicklaus is pretty damn smart, knows golf as well as anyone, played with Hogan and Woods, and I trust his judgment. As far as stats go, Nicklaus played with Hogan during the final two rounds at Cherry Hills in 1960, when Hogan missed two fairways and two greens in 36 holes. What the hell more "stats" do you need?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Nicklaus also played with Hogan when he was an awestruck 21 year old. He played with Tiger when Tiger was 26 and Jack wasn't as easily impressed. Not saying one is better, but Tiger has a long way to go to groove his swing and add to his legacy.

 

[mjstrong]

And I'm saying that is a totally lame-ass opinion. Nicklaus is pretty damn smart, knows golf as well as anyone, played with Hogan and Woods, and I trust his judgment. As far as stats go, Nicklaus played with Hogan during the final two rounds at Cherry Hills in 1960, when Hogan missed two fairways and two greens in 36 holes. What the hell more "stats" do you need?

How about the yardage on each of those shots? How about the length of the rough? Pretty tough to compare the shot values when conditions and technologies have changed so much. You know what? I've played several rounds with 14 fairways and 18 GIR, and I'm obviously not in the same atmosphere as those guys.

I'm not saying that Tiger hits it better then Hogan; I'm of the mind that you can rarely compare athletes in different eras. However, I do think that the fields are much deeper these days and, to me, that makes Tiger's dominance pretty impressive.

 

[jeffy]

I'm not saying that Tiger hits it better then Hogan; I'm of the mind that you can rarely compare athletes in different eras. However, I do think that the fields are much deeper these days and, to me, that makes Tiger's dominance pretty impressive.

Did anyone say it WASN'T impressive?

 

[jeffy]

Nicklaus also played with Hogan when he was an awestruck 21 year old.

Yeah, he was so goddamn "awestruck" that his first tour win was the 1962 US Open, defeating the king of golf at the time, Arnold Palmer, in a play-off, in Palmer's own backyard. People who knew him say that Nicklaus thought that he was the "best" starting around 1960. I don't think that Nicklaus's assessment of Hogan's ballstriking was through rose-colored glasses...

 

[Kevin Shields]

Yeah, he was so goddamn "awestruck" that his first tour win was the the 1962 US Open, defeating the king of golf at the time, Arnold Palmer, in a play-off, in Palmer's own backyard. People who knew him say that Nicklaus thought that he was the "best" starting around 1960. I don't think that Nicklaus's assessment of Hogan's ballstriking was through rose-colored glasses...

I do. Nicklaus supposedly watched Hogan practice....but he wasn't at all awestruck. And when was the last time you heard someone over 60 say Tiger was better than Hogan. Everyone wants to protect their own era.

 

[birdie_man]

Well hey- when was the last time you heard of someone much UNDER 60 who has SEEN Hogan hit it near his prime?

(Hey man you know someone had to throw that one out there...)

 

[Kevin Shields]

Well hey- when was the last time you heard of someone much UNDER 60 who has SEEN Hogan hit it near his prime?

(Hey man you know someone had to throw that one out there...)

Very true. But my point is the older we get the better everyone used to be. And your heroes growing up are infallible. If i have to hear my dad say there will never be a pitcher as good as Koufax I'm gonna puke.

 

[jeffy]

I do. Nicklaus supposedly watched Hogan practice....but he wasn't at all awestruck. And when was the last time you heard someone over 60 say Tiger was better than Hogan. Everyone wants to protect their own era.

There is an interesting story Deane Beman tells about Hogan and Nicklaus at Cherry Hills in 1960. When I get home tonight, I'll verify all the details (it is in the new glossy book Simply the Best about Nicklaus), but this is the gist:

Beman went out to follow Hogan and Nicklaus the final day, and noticed something different about Hogan's demeanor: typically, Hogan never paid any attention to his playing partners, but this time was different. Beman saw that Hogan was studying Nicklaus closely on every shot, and that his face took on the same look of wonderment people had when they watched Hogan. Beman could see that Hogan knew he was witnessing the beginning of something very special. If there was "awe" that day, it was mutual.

BTW, a former tour pro friend of mine in his 70's (multiple winner, including a senior major), who was buddies with Bolt and others in Hogan's circle, says that the only player worth studying is Tiger. He thinks Hogan's swing is too "complicated" and that Hogan would be proud of what Tiger is doing in his swing today. But that doesn't mean that Tiger has the control Hogan did...yet!

 

[holeout]

I think it was at Cherry Hills in '60 when Hogan was being interviewed about the win he said, "There's a fat kid over there who would have won by 10 if he had my head on his shoulders." Pretty telling compliment.

 

[jeffy]

I think it was at Cherry Hills in '60 when Hogan was being interviewed about the win he said, "There's a fat kid over there who would have won by 10 if he had my head on his shoulders." Pretty telling compliment.

Agreed 100%. Nicklaus's alleged retort (in private) was that "Hogan would have won by ten shots if he had me putt for him".

 

[Dariusz J.]

If its possible to know something about a dead man when there were no tour stats in his playing days, then you show me. Hogan hit it great, and had a great swing(s). Tiger hits it great too, and has a great swing(despite what you may think). I'm not saying Tiger hits it better, I'm saying its impossible to definitely know one way or the other.

It's easily possible to say who was a better ballstriker. Hogan won 6 majors (post-accident) with a very crappy putting due to his health problems. Imagine, how a great ballstriker he had to be to win so many tournaments with a putting worse than of an average amateur.
If you, hypothetically, had taken his excellent putting from Woods before and change it into a crappy one, I doubt he could win 6 major titles. I wonder if he could win at least one. Enuff said.

Cheers

 

[Jamma]

It's easily possible to say who was a better ballstriker. Hogan won 6 majors (post-accident) with a very crappy putting due to his health problems. Imagine, how a great ballstriker he had to be to win so many tournaments with a putting worse than of an average amateur.
If you, hypothetically, had taken his excellent putting from Woods before and change it into a crappy one, I doubt he could win 6 major titles. I wonder if he could win at least one. Enuff said.

Cheers

I think it's pretty darn meaningless to argue which was the better ballstriker. I know they both are/were pretty damn good at it. But still, it's just one part of the game. You have to have a good short game (specially PUTT!!), you have to be mentally tough, you have to know and trust your game. And I think when combining all those things, there is one man above others....and that is Tiger Woods. Enuff said.

 

[tongzilla]

Imagine, how a great ballstriker he had to be to win so many tournaments with a putting worse than of an average amateur.

Btw, there is no way, absolutely no way, Hogan's putting is worse than the "average amateur" post accident.

 

[jeffy]

Btw, there is no way, absolutely no way, Hogan's putting is worse than the "average amateur" post accident.

Correct. It didn't really deteriorate until the mid-'50's, when he stopped winning, of course.

 

[Dariusz J.]

OK, so I apologize for writing a wrong opinion above. I thought I'd read that the accident had also a direct impact on his sight and that his putting deteriorated straightly after the crash. So, my argument is not valid any more.
Thanks for correcting me.

Cheers

 

[thefuture37]

It's easily possible to say who was a better ballstriker. Hogan won 6 majors (post-accident) with a very crappy putting due to his health problems. Imagine, how a great ballstriker he had to be to win so many tournaments with a putting worse than of an average amateur.
If you, hypothetically, had taken his excellent putting from Woods before and change it into a crappy one, I doubt he could win 6 major titles. I wonder if he could win at least one. Enuff said.

Cheers

No wonder you think Hogan was a super-human ballstriker. Its too bad they didn't keep stats on anything. 'NUFF SAID! lol

 

[Dariusz J.]

I thought and I still think Hogan's ballstriking was of superb quality, even if I was wrong about the time his putting deteriorated. At least I have always enough civil courage to admit I was wrong and apologize for writing a silly untrue argument, which is so hard to do for many people on golf fora.
Moreover, I am still sure that his ballstriking quality was much better than Woods'. I have encountered no single statement of any golf experts that say otherwise.

Cheers