Ultimate Hogan

[tank]

I thought and I still think Hogan's ballstriking was of superb quality, even if I was wrong about the time his putting deteriorated. At least I have always enough civil courage to admit I was wrong and apologize for writing a silly untrue argument, which is so hard to do for many people on golf fora.
Moreover, I am still sure that his ballstriking quality was much better than Woods'. I have encountered no single statement of any golf experts that say otherwise.

Cheers

What is the significance of this argument? Why would it be important to determine who is the better ball striker. As stated by others, ball-striking is only one of the many factors that make a great golfer; some tangible and some intangible.

There has to be a ton of great ball strikers who, because they did not possess the other important factors, will never be in the hall of fame.

Greatness in golf is determined primarily by number of wins with a large bias towards the Majors, and secondarily (probably) by winning percentage over a career.

Hogan was a great golfer, but we are lucky enough to be witness to the man who is likely the greatest golfer of all time.

Try to appreciate, if not enjoy the experience.

 

[Dariusz J.]

For me the ballstriking quality is important, for you it is not. Fine. People are different, just try to understand it. I do not have problems with understanding that the best player is this who scores well. It's obvious, since the game of golf is constructed this way.
But when a thread is about the ballstriking quality some people always have to chime in, don't know why, with such truisms like above mentioned in your post, that are out of the main subject of the discussion.

Cheers

 

[thefuture37]

Dariusz,

Who do you think are the top 5 golfers of all time?

 

[mjstrong]

Dariusz,

Who do you think are the top 5 golfers of all time?

Sounds like a good idea for a new thread...top 5 ball strikers versus top 5 goflers. Something like:

Ball strikers:
1) Ben Hogan
2) Moe Norman
3) Lee Trevino
4) Tiger Woods
5) Jack Nicklaus

Golfers:
1) Tiger Woods
2) Jack Nicklaus
3) Ben Hogan
4) Sam Snead
5) Arnold Palmer

(Not a ton of thought put into those lists, just a starting point...)

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz,

Who do you think are the top 5 golfers of all time?

Well, here you are, TF:

Ballstrikers (for what I've heard and read, all clubs except putters):
1) Ben Hogan
2) Lee Trevino
3) Moe Norman
4) George Knudson
5) Mac O'Grady

Golfers (most PGA wins appeals more to me than most majors only):
1) Sam Snead
2) Jack Nicklaus
3) Ben Hogan
4) Tiger Woods
5) Arnold Palmer

Cheers

 

[thefuture37]

The fact that you are still in denial about Tiger being better than Hogan and Snead as total players shows why people get on to you when you make these bold claims for Hogan and against Tiger. I'll ask you this question again after Tiger wins 3 more PGA events to see if that means you put Tiger ahead of Hogan.

 

[miki111]

IMO B.Nelson fits top 5 in these categories.

 

[Dariusz J.]

The fact that you are still in denial about Tiger being better than Hogan and Snead as total players shows why people get on to you when you make these bold claims for Hogan and against Tiger. I'll ask you this question again after Tiger wins 3 more PGA events to see if that means you put Tiger ahead of Hogan.

If you look carefully, my top5 golfers is identical to the top5 of the most PGA wins table. Thus, I see no reason NOT to put Woods in front of Hogan if he wins 3 times more.
Why should I favour Woods over Snead and Hogan if each of them won more tournaments ? Explain me your logic then. I am all ears.

Cheers

 

[thefuture37]

The logic is that Tiger has accomplished more in a shorter period of time than any other golfer ever. His winning percentage is number 1 all-time(~26%). He won more majors than Hogan and in less than 10 years! He is only 32 and is on pace to break the major record and Snead's pga tour record. And this year alone he will pass Hogan in PGA tour wins. Thats why. It'll be awhile until he passes Snead, but almost double Snead's major wins(7) and the career grandslam is enough to put Tiger past the Slammer. IMO once you get to the crazy number of wins(60+), everybody already knows you are great. The number of wins you get past that number is more a measure of longevity than greatness.

 

[Dariusz J.]

It's a good explanation, TF. I understand your logic, it has some sense to me, and although my opinion is different, I have no intentions to criticize it. It's your opinion and I respect it. I would like people could respect my opinions the same way. Enough said.
BTW, I have learnt though not to try to speak about the future days the way that they have already happened.

Cheers

 

[mjstrong]

If you look carefully, my top5 golfers is identical to the top5 of the most PGA wins table. Thus, I see no reason NOT to put Woods in front of Hogan if he wins 3 times more.
Why should I favour Woods over Snead and Hogan if each of them won more tournaments ? Explain me your logic then. I am all ears.

Cheers

Curious... instead of wins, would you consider winning percentage a factor? Without actually looking at the stats, I am sure that Tiger has a higher winning percentage than Snead and Hogan. If we are trying to determine the most talented golfer of all time, it would seem to make sense.

EDIT: Ah, I see this was addressed...

 

[Dariusz J.]

Yes, a very good point, I have no objection to state that Woods is probably the most talented golf player in the history of the game.

Cheers

 

[tongzilla]

Even without his talent, I reckon if you had the kind of upbringing he had, you would still be a world class golfer.

 

[thefuture37]

"talent"-another unquantifiable characteristic

 

[HIGHBALLGURU]

Hi Sir Jeffy, thank you for your videos in U tube, you did excelent job there.

I prefer the swing from the Shell's match against Sam Snead in the 1960s. The beach video (old Hogan) is a far superior swing to the Clem Darracott video. His swing like a wine the older the better.

Do you know what Trolio 's secret in his new Hogan book?
I also prefer the swing that won 30 tournaments in 1946-47-48 and the swing that won 6 of 9 Majors from 1950-53.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IXn-LHrJt8&NR=1

 

[jeffy]

Hi Sir Jeffy, thank you for your videos in U tube, you did excelent job there.

Do you know what Trolio 's secret in his new Hogan book?

Thank you. The so-called secret is Hogan's targetward hip action that takes place DURING the backswing. Trolio uses this sequence (taken from the Darracott footage) to illustrate it:

It is also apparent from the face-on view in this iron sequence from 1959:

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm very curious to know what Brian thinks of Hogan's targetward weight shift of his hips as a secret. I would think he might say it's a flaw he's overcome.

 

[HIGHBALLGURU]

Thank for your fantastic pictures, anyways targetward move is not a new things, Vardon, Jones just named a few did it long time ago. Any importance stuff other than that, like tailbones move to target? please advise.

 

[jeffy]

I'm very curious to know what Brian thinks of Hogan's targetward weight shift of his hips as a secret. I would think he might say it's a flaw he's overcome.

It's only considered a "secret" because he did not talk about it in "Five Lessons". Anyone who looked closely at his swing knew about it. A "flaw" he overcame? Some of you guys are too much...

 

[jeffy]

Thank for your fantastic pictures, anyways targetward move is not a new things, Vardon, Jones just named a few did it long time ago. Any importance stuff other than that, like tailbones move to target? please advise.

Not really. The author is a MORAD guy, btw. How is your son playing?