What Kind of Release is this? & Can an effective swing include no deceleration?

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I am saying this:

You can not make a high level powerful swing—tour caliber or not, long drive champion or not—without pelvis deceleration.

Can someone please tell me what the other side is saying EXACTLY?
 
C

cwdlaw223

New
Brian -

It's evolving and now being filled in with qualifications after they claimed absolutely NO decel. Now there's a little decel. Their next issue will be there might be decel but it's immaterial. Their data is from 2D video which they freely admit. Nobody can catch a changing theory.
 
drewyallop

drewyallop

New
Brian Manzella said:
I am saying this:

You can not make a high level powerful swing—tour caliber or not, long drive champion or not—without pelvis deceleration.

Can someone please tell me what the other side is saying EXACTLY?
Click to expand...

Ah, but you haven't included the true elite Brian ... the golfer set containing all golfer sets that are not members of themselves (caution: 4D, infinite DOF, a Casio and line drawing required for proper understanding)
 
mgranato

mgranato

New
Brian Manzella said:
Can someone please tell me what the other side is saying EXACTLY?
Click to expand...

Only that everything you have taught, are teaching, and will ever teach is wrong. It's no more complicated than that. But rest easy knowing that none of the "differences" come from intellectual honesty, just plain old vindictiveness from getting spanked in front of the class. :rolleyes:

Whatever they're saying today will change tomorrow, just as it did yesterday. That's a luxury that comes from not knowing what they're talking about.
 
Deechpga2288

Deechpga2288

New
After reading through much of this thread and filtering through the non-applicable information I just want to add an idea into the mix.

It is my feeling that, when done properly, you do have decelration of the pelvis to allow for greater acceleration of distal segments.

Now, the argument of "the pelvis does not decelerate" as seen on 2D video, in my opinion, holds no water due to the fact that when you apply forces along and about other axis, you then as a result have a rotational velocity that is "decelerating". It is my oipinion through research that the forces of POSTERIOR TILTING, THRUSTING and SIDE BENDING of the pelvis between transition and impact all play a role into the deceleration of the overall velocity of the pelvis.

When I see a pelvis that does not decelerate properly, it is due in part almost 100% of the time to a disfunctional movement in one of the above parameters.

Again, this is only my opinion.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Deechpga2288 said:
After reading through much of this thread and filtering through the non-applicable information I just want to add an idea into the mix.

It is my feeling that, when done properly, you do have decelration of the pelvis to allow for greater acceleration of distal segments.

Now, the argument of "the pelvis does not decelerate" as seen on 2D video, in my opinion, holds no water due to the fact that when you apply forces along and about other axis, you then as a result have a rotational velocity that is "decelerating". It is my oipinion through research that the forces of POSTERIOR TILTING, THRUSTING and SIDE BENDING of the pelvis between transition and impact all play a role into the deceleration of the overall velocity of the pelvis.

When I see a pelvis that does not decelerate properly, it is due in part almost 100% of the time to a disfunctional movement in one of the above parameters.

Again, this is only my opinion.
Click to expand...

Deech,

Is it possible that what folks are seeing and think they are seeing PELVIS ROTATION are in fact seeing the hips taking out tilt while already being rotated open?

Which is why I am updating my statement to include this idea:

You can not make a high level powerful swing—tour caliber or not, long drive champion or not—without pelvis rotational deceleration.
 
Deechpga2288

Deechpga2288

New
Brian,

It is my feeling that, yes, what folks are seeing in 2 dimension is that the hips are not deceleratng through impact. In actuality, what is occuring is a roatation that IS decelerating simultaniously with a loss of pelvic bend (posterior tilting) in addition to a contually increasing side bend to allow for the loss of bend while rotation is being applied.

It is understandable why 2D viewers can mistake this for what they are claiming but, they are comparing apples to oranges.

The big thing to remember is the pelvic gurdle DOES NOT simply rotate along one axis with no other forces being applied and it is my opinion that it is these forces that cause the pelvis to stabilize and decelerate.
 
natep

natep

New
Brian Manzella said:
Can someone please get a simple sentence statement on what they believe on pelvis rotational velocity from these yahoos?
Click to expand...

"Hogan didn't decel, though".

That seems to be plan B, since 'the model' and all the platinum ballstrikers have been proven to decelerate.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Deechpga2288 said:
Brian,

It is my feeling that, yes, what folks are seeing in 2 dimension is that the hips are not deceleratng through impact. In actuality, what is occuring is a roatation that IS decelerating simultaniously with a loss of pelvic bend (posterior tilting) in addition to a contually increasing side bend to allow for the loss of bend while rotation is being applied.

It is understandable why 2D viewers can mistake this for what they are claiming but, they are comparing apples to oranges.

The big thing to remember is the pelvic gurdle DOES NOT simply rotate along one axis with no other forces being applied and it is my opinion that it is these forces that cause the pelvis to stabilize and decelerate.
Click to expand...

Deech,

You have obviously spent a bunch of time on 6DOF 3D. What do you think about folks who are claiming video is better?
 
Deechpga2288

Deechpga2288

New
Brian,

I would have to stand firm on the fact that high speed video gives a good inclination as to what MIGHT be going on but, by no means can video provide evidence of what is going on through time and space along multiple axis simultanouly.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Deechpga2288 said:
Brian,

I would have to stand firm on the fact that high speed video gives a good inclination as to what MIGHT be going on but, by no means can video provide evidence of what is going on through time and space along multiple axis simultanouly.
Click to expand...

Absolutely!

Indeed, the BACKWARD movement of the mid-point of the hands/left arm unit, in the plane of hands vs. the clubhead mass—since the whole system is rotating as well, is miss repeatedly in swing analysis.
 
grahler

grahler

New
Well I don't have much to say about the hips acceleration or decel data because I don't have access to that.
I have my redneck thinking and that's it.
But I think the best data shows JS with decelerating hips.
My theory on it is this: JS applies a lot more force in an effective way than most. He swings down and out then up and in on the d plane through impact.
The question is at any given point in the swing what is the optimum direction to apply force in the most efficient fashion to accelerate the clubhead.
My guess is the direction is constantly changing as the clubhead travels in its arc.

Its circular swinging motion so the direction of force applied is constantly changing.

So if we imagine a player continuing hip acceleration what advantage in speed would it bring to the clubhead?
The force vectors involved would be very off plane and the support to the shoulders left primarily would be lost.

I think nearing and through impact the most efficient direction to apply force would be much more upwards and backwards than leftwards that the hip acceleration theory would do.

I think its all about force vectors and IMO the decel of the hips is more a changing of that vector direction than anything clearly it happens so there must be a real reason that left hip might decel but it also rises.
So just saying-maybe the obvious decel is actually a changing direction of the force vector its applying.

I have to qualify this post to say I am just theorizing I have no data on it.
I will say I am beyond drawing lines on videos.
A theory can be quirky or strange but line drawing is just plain dumb (pun intended.)
 
lia41985

lia41985

New member
That's some serious intuition. If that's redneck insight then I'm going to substitute my morning oatmeal for squirrel. Give me some of that!
 
W

wulsy

New
This is just getting silly now IMO. Why try to prove that we live on a spherical planet just because some whackos claim that the world is flat. Leave it, and let the whackos get on with their whacko whackiness.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Nah Wulsy,

Everybody learns from these sorts of things.

For instance, everyone knows now that the science in TGM is baloney. Everyone claims the D-Plane for their own, after I took fired all the missiles and took all the grenades, almost everyone now knows that forces and torques can be seen, etc. etc.

I woke up this morning and realized that the way I move golfers pelvis through impact—the key here is I do it though impact—is not JUST around!!

Long ago in this war, I made sure the folks who have never taken a lesson from me in the "Nesbit Era" knew that Giving Folks The Business is something I do in a great majority of lessons.

It must have not made much sense to my fans or foes that I argue for pelvis rotational deceleration, but ACTIVELY GET ON MY KNEE—ON THE GROUND—IN MANY MANY LESSONS. In fact, when I was asked by Jim McLean to do a presentation at his facility for his teaching staff, the one of the things he was most impressed with was how I got down on the ground and gave a member of his staff The Business when I was doing a teaching demo. Fixed the guy in 5 balls of course.

So, why does it work?

Ah....

With my left hand on the rib cage and my right hand under and to the side of the golfer's right cheek, I do EXACTLY what "Deech" is saying (above) " ...roatation that IS decelerating simultaniously with a loss of pelvic bend (posterior tilting) in addition to a contually increasing side bend to allow for the loss of bend while rotation is being applied.

That's what I do—I push the hips around but only "so far" as the motion I make with my left hand on the rib cage allows. The ribs are pulled around a bit but mostly move the golfer into extension of the hips and back, and since I push the right cheek UNDER, that adds to the right side bend.

And that's that.

Who Dat?
 
lia41985

lia41985

New member
Beware the moving target. Particularly when this situation involves discussions :) of a sport requiring precision to a stationary target.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top