self-mastery
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What's the utilitarian value in this 'discovery'? How do we use it to score lower?
BOMBSHELL: New Research from the Manzella Labs!
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johnnymac2201
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clubhead rotation
Brian, a couple questions.
1. During this "flat spot" period of the swing, is the clubhead rotating or does it remain square?
2. Should making this "flat spot" as long as possible be a goal that we strive towards?
John
Brian, a couple questions.
1. During this "flat spot" period of the swing, is the clubhead rotating or does it remain square?
2. Should making this "flat spot" as long as possible be a goal that we strive towards?
John
You'd think a flat spot would help you control d-plane more easily, so maximizing it or having it at the right time in the swing would help you score.
Matt Bryda
New
How does the flat spot relate to clubhead speed?
It seems like the longer your flat spot the more clubhead speed you will generate.
Matt
It seems like the longer your flat spot the more clubhead speed you will generate.
Matt
mandrin
New
extended flat spot
The geometric restraints, imposed by stature, posture and the dimensions of shoulders, arms and club, allow a very large flat spot to be obtained, as can be seen from Fig1, where it is 0.55 m. Hence it is quit reasonable to think that having some feedback of the actual trajectory through impact area it should be rather easy to learn to swing in such a way to obtain a fairly large flat spot. The secret lies primarily with the proper timing and coordination of the in and up movement of the lead shoulder joint with the lateral motion of the club head through the impact area. I remember an interesting article about Jack Nicklaus who, getting older and loosing his competitive edge, went to Phil Rodgers for help, primarily for his short game. Phil Rodgers in this article mentioned how he taught Jack Nicklaus to extend his flat spot and having obtained this way a considerable gain in distance for Jack Nicklaus.
mandrin
The geometric restraints, imposed by stature, posture and the dimensions of shoulders, arms and club, allow a very large flat spot to be obtained, as can be seen from Fig1, where it is 0.55 m. Hence it is quit reasonable to think that having some feedback of the actual trajectory through impact area it should be rather easy to learn to swing in such a way to obtain a fairly large flat spot. The secret lies primarily with the proper timing and coordination of the in and up movement of the lead shoulder joint with the lateral motion of the club head through the impact area. I remember an interesting article about Jack Nicklaus who, getting older and loosing his competitive edge, went to Phil Rodgers for help, primarily for his short game. Phil Rodgers in this article mentioned how he taught Jack Nicklaus to extend his flat spot and having obtained this way a considerable gain in distance for Jack Nicklaus.
mandrin
ggsjpc
New
Mandrin, I've looked at your posts and now I have some questions.
In your 3d view posts, was the rotating spot between the shoulders(for lack of a better description) rotating at the same angle as the leftarm/club unit was moving relative to the ground?
Also in the 3d post, how long is that straight line?
Does a straight line relationship have the requirement of this rotational axis and club matching each other or when we break apart the left arm and club relationship, does that allow for the shoulders to travel on a different axis to produce straight?
I don't have a difficult time picturing a flat spot at the bottom but I have a difficult time picturing a straight bottom of 6-8 inches as was claimed earlier.(granted, Brian also said it could be shorter or longer).
Lastly, does the above picture have impact at 0.0?
If yes, wouldn't the collision with the ball push the club downward to conserve momentum. Wouldn't the angle of attack always be lower after seperation than it was just before impact?
Thanks,
John
In your 3d view posts, was the rotating spot between the shoulders(for lack of a better description) rotating at the same angle as the leftarm/club unit was moving relative to the ground?
Also in the 3d post, how long is that straight line?
Does a straight line relationship have the requirement of this rotational axis and club matching each other or when we break apart the left arm and club relationship, does that allow for the shoulders to travel on a different axis to produce straight?
I don't have a difficult time picturing a flat spot at the bottom but I have a difficult time picturing a straight bottom of 6-8 inches as was claimed earlier.(granted, Brian also said it could be shorter or longer).
Lastly, does the above picture have impact at 0.0?
If yes, wouldn't the collision with the ball push the club downward to conserve momentum. Wouldn't the angle of attack always be lower after seperation than it was just before impact?
Thanks,
John
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johnnymac2201
New
Mandrin, what I find interesting is the movement of the red dot that I assume represents the hands. It is obvious that they are indeed moving up. Confirming the view of some pros, Don Trahan and Count Yogi are the first that come to mind, that we should think of hitting up on the ball. A feeling of what the hands are doing?
mandrin
New
John,
Don't see in those figures a real golfer. They are primarily meant to just show that a perfect straight line club head trajectory through impact zone is possible. For many that may be a surprise, especially for the ultra orthodox die hard TGMers. They can only fathom circles and nothing else.
These simple mathematical presentations are only meant to illustrate/explain a bare bone concept, not being really any precise instruction for a real golfer. But knowing that it is feasible might encourage someone to go ahead and try to learn to swing such as to get a more extended sweet spot.
There is another feature connected with the brisk in up motion of the lead shoulder joint just prior and through impact - it gives a bit more clubhead speed. Hence there are possibly two interesting things happening simultaneously, 1) extended flat spot - not bad for accuracy/consistency and 2) greater clubhead speed - not bad either.
birdie_man
New
More guesses:
Full roll for more flat spot? Or at least, more forward lean. (vs. letting the left wrist bend and the clubhead rise)
Vertical compression of the body? (onto the left leg)
An intentional loop to the inside in the downswing?
Full roll for more flat spot? Or at least, more forward lean. (vs. letting the left wrist bend and the clubhead rise)
Vertical compression of the body? (onto the left leg)
An intentional loop to the inside in the downswing?
mandrin
New
johnny,
The hands whilst going up could have the clubhead going down, up, or just stay level, as specifically shown in Fig1. It is all a matter of timing of relative motion/angles between shoulder joint, arms and clubhead.
Indeed one could feel like hitting up on the ball whilst in reality we are actually hitting down on the ball.
Golf is indeed a funny game with plenty of paradoxes.
ggsjpc
New
John,
Don't see in those figures a real golfer. They are primarily meant to just show that a perfect straight line club head trajectory through impact zone is possible. For many that may be a surprise, especially for the ultra orthodox die hard TGMers. They can only fathom circles and nothing else.
These simple mathematical presentations are only meant to illustrate/explain a bare bone concept, not being really any precise instruction for a real golfer. But knowing that it is feasible might encourage someone to go ahead and try to learn to swing such as to get a more extended sweet spot.
There is another feature connected with the brisk in up motion of the lead shoulder joint just prior and through impact - it gives a bit more clubhead speed. Hence there are possibly two interesting things happening simultaneously, 1) extended flat spot - not bad for accuracy/consistency and 2) greater clubhead speed - not bad either.
Mandrin,
Thanks for your response.
Just out of curiosity, knowing that they are not real golfers, would you be willing to answer my previous questions about the 3d post so I can wrap my head around what I'm looking at?
Thank you in advance.
John
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Mandrin,
since the clubhead acts as if it is separated and is free wheeling, can the body do anything at impact that would influence the flat spot or is it all done before that?
since the clubhead acts as if it is separated and is free wheeling, can the body do anything at impact that would influence the flat spot or is it all done before that?
mandrin
New
John,
The 3D figures are actually2D, since motion is contained in a plane. Hence shoulders, arms, and club have a common axis for rotation. Think of a Ferris wheel tilted a bit. Yet another restriction here is that arm and club were assumed to be in line, just lazy at that time to make things mathematically a bit easier and be able to post quickly.
The better golfers have their axis of rotation for trunk/shoulders and that of arm/club quite closely aligned. Then the simple model is right on. However if a golfer has a more vertical axis of rotation for trunk/shoulders and a normal inclined swing plane than the feasibility of an extended truly straight line sweet spot is a bit less.
I did not think of any specific impact location.
Indeed the straight line trajectory does not include the disturbance due to collision of head with ball. However whatever it looks after impact is not important since the ball is already on its way. All that counts is creating good impact alignments for clubhead trajectory and club face orientation. Once impact occurs it is out of our hands. Physics takes over completely for the next 0.0004 sec.
mandrin
New
Kevin,
I totally agree, all that can be done is done before impact. Once impact is on its way there is nothing that a golfer can do. Hence any useful action can only be done before impact.
I view the extended flat spot as an attempt by the golfer to create a greater margin of precision/consistency. A curved path requires greater precision than a straight on trajectory. Also for this reason I feel that an extended flat spot is something of interest only before impact.
ggsjpc
New
Mandrin,
Ok, so based on this tilted ferris wheel idea, are we to presume that a more bent over posture that would allow the axis of rotation to better match up with arm/club would have a better chance of creating a straighter moving clubhead?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Not Mandrin...
THE CLUB MOVE VERY STRAIGHT TOWARD IMPACT!!!
We have it on 1000fps Casio, and other video sources.
It exists.
mandrin
New
ggsjpc,
I can't quantify it but reducing effectively from 3 to 2 dimensions can only help to make things easier.
ggsjpc
New
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mandrin
New
Brian,
Is it easy to spot on video?
What angles do you take?
Bird's eye view?
Horizontally, low and parallel to ground, longitudinally and perpendicularly to clubhead path ?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
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