The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

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Brian Manzella

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If almost "picking" the ball is optimal, then why did Hogan make divots with his 3-wood (which leads me to assume that he made significant divots with, say, a 6-iron).

Famously, Hogan would out drive Nelson, and then Nelson would catch him on the fairway wood shot on Par 5s. Byron was less down, and probably had less spin loft.


Because I think the axis for line-up is the left forearm, extending down through the wrist....

The axis is probably higher.

The COUPLING POINT is the point around the bending arching of the two hands, and a few other things as well.

It is PART of the "line up," not the thing to line up.

I'm struck by the continuity of this stuff with the soft draw pattern. Is this release more compatible with a grip that's a bit stronger than "Manzella Neutral"?

Soft Draw shows where I was going, huh?

Slightly stronger, yes.

I agree that in 2009 and possibly even now Tiger has been very in-to-out through impact. That's a big part of the problem.

Tiger made his biggest divots at the end of the Haney era. Popped up 3-woods, remember?

Centripetal is associated with a "body-dominant pivot." Centrifugal is associated with an "arms-dominant pivot." In a centripetal release, the clubface closes very gradually post-impact. In-to-in. In a centrifugal release, the clubface closes rapidly post-impact. In-to-out.

These are terms and ideas exposed by Mac O'Grady. Although at least two scientists I've talked to said that they wouldn't call them CP and CF, and neither would I, there is no doubt that the two ways are present in golf. Among other "releases."

Too bad the swings produced with the info don;t look more like these:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/28263441?color=c9ff23" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe>


You see, this thread had produced dozens of folks that say "they knew this" way back when.

They may have.

But nobody has done a good job of gathering all of these nuggets, publishing something that can be used by all, and as a teacher produce WILDLY different looking swings that work.

That's the two things I'm trying to do.
 
I agree, it's all quite confusing to those that haven't studied it in depth. It seems those that say it doesn't exist claim that acceleration is responsible. But I feel like basic Newtonian physics kind of simplifies things for those of us that aren't trying to build space stations or mathmatical models. I think the non-inertial car example is a bit different then, say a rock on a string example. In twirling a rock on a string, the centripetal force, the action, is being transmitted by the string, and the centrifugal force, the reaction, is acting on the source of the centripetal force and is pulling outward from the center of its rotation. Equal and opposite reactions. See Newtons Third law. But I'm no expert either. However fictitious or not, in my opinion using centrifugal and centripetal to classify any sort of release styles as being one or the other is deeply flawed, and nonsensical from a scientific standpoint.

The string exerts an inward force on the rock and by Newton's 3rd law, the rock exerts an outward force on the string. The action and reaction forces are always on different objects. There is no outward force on the rock. It wants to go in a straight line because of Newton's 1st law, the law of inertia. That's not to say centrifugal forces do not exist. Something would have to be exerting an outward force on the rock. Such as a right arm straightening in the golf swing.
 
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Fascinating post as always, Brian, thanks. Interesting to see that CP / CF goes all the way back to Mac O'Grady. I've heard it said that that was an essential concept that Homer Kelley missed (or at least left out of his book).

Anyhoo, when you write "Tiger made his biggest divots at the end of the Haney era. Popped up 3-woods, remember?" I'm going to assume that those divots were pointing to the right. As an underplaner myself, I've also struggled with those issues (including fat impacts resulting in shallow divots pointing to the right). I've seen videos that show how severely underplane and "stuck" Tiger would get his clubhead as he approached impact in 2009. The divots that would result from that are entirely different from Hogan's 3-wood divots, which probably pointed slightly left.
 

lia41985

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Tiger, as most accomplished players have a tendency to do, errs in swinging to far to the right. One of the reasons why Hogan is so esteemed is his ability to swing left which, as is well known, helped him battle a hook.

John Jacobs stated that the hooker tends to be too shallow while the slicer is too steep. However, this may be an incomplete description because there is the danger that angle of attack and vertical swing plane, which are distinct, will be conflated. Tiger used to shallow a steeper backswing plane, as many good players do, while Hogan looked to stay pretty shallow throughout, exhibiting more of a uniform vertical swing plane angle throughout his swing. Butch Harmon tried to get Tiger to stay on a more uniform vertical swing plane angle by swinging up and down the so-called Turned Shoulder Plane, a la David Toms. In fact, and I wish I could find the video, Butch Harmon on the Golf Channel (Academy?) once analyzed Toms's swing and talked about how great it was in that David was able to keep the club out in front of him so well (and not letting the club fall behind him by shallowing out and changing the vertical swing plane angle dramatically). Basically Tiger would go from steep to shallow (and at times too shallow, or "stuck") and, since the golf swing requires rotation and occurs in three dimensions, this change in vertical swing plane angle would have an impact on his horizontal swing plane/swing direction which would be shifted overly rightwards. So what do you do from there? Tiger said he was too reliant on "timing" with his "great hands" and that he'd have to "flip" to "save" the shot.

With the club "stuck", Tiger was forced to steepen at the last second with a "flip" such that he could steepen his vertical swing plane angle and re-direct his swing direction leftwards by standing the club up. Of course, in doing so, you run the danger of getting too steep (from being too shallow) and get the fats. Hence, what Brian described for Tiger at the end stages of his time with Hank Haney (also remembering how Brian described Haney's prescribed backswing as forcing Tiger to over-drop).

A key element of this release that Brian and Michael are discovering and teaching is the fact that it should, ideally, occur with the body stable (something Tiger definitely struggles with). Brian said that pivoting like crazy is crazy. People took that as a rip on no-shift pivots but it's also an admonishment of what could be termed an over-pivot. Michael and Kevin have multiple times discussed the ideas of an over-turned and over-leaned pivot and Brian has also presented Ben Doyle's milk crate pivot idea. Pivoting like crazy is crazy and there's a continuum of pivots and the extremes are what's crazy.

What's paramount is the movement of the club. That's because it is the only thing hitting the ball and what the ball does is what golf is all about. So much time and effort has gone into discussing the body and positions that the body gets into (thereby having implications on what the pivot should or shouldn't be). Keep the focus on the club by paying attention to what the ball does (and to be have the most accurate gauge of this Trackman/Flightscope are a must).

The idea that beginners should start to learn by hitting chips and moving up was flawed from the start because the notion was based on teaching a certain anatomical reference point, the flat left wrist. Ultimately, that's just a point in time and who cares about a certain body position when really we're only concerned with what the ball, and thereby what the club, is doing?

Brian and Michael: in teaching the beginner, would you say now that the beginner would be best served by learned how to hit a pitch shot? To me, that sure seems like it'd be the way to go. You'd get an appreciation for how the club swings, how the body responds to the swinging of the club, and of the D plane (because most pitches require a leftward swing that generally is most readily accomplished from a stance that's leftwards of where the face is pointing at address).

I thought Kevin wrote a great post about wanting to avoid erroneous descriptions even if it encourages a certain feel because inevitably, those are the band-aid fixes. Sure, whatever works but you want something that works in the long term and a true understanding based on real science gives us the best chance for that, I believe. In the end though, yes, whatever gets the ball and club doing the right thing but the reason why this is the best forum on the planet is because the proprietors are open to advancing their knowledge and avoiding faulty concepts and obscured terminology. I can't stand to read some of that Golf Machine (pardon my language) crap.

Brian, thanks for the response to Virtuoso's post, I really didn't know how to respond (and could not really understand what was even written and trust me it wasn't for a lack of time or effort) and your answer was very helpful. You've got an amazing talent at taking complicated concepts and turning it into something everyone can use. To paraphrase DC, "knowing it in all of it's complexity and teaching it in all of it's simplicity; that's genius." I can't wait for my lesson with you in Pittsburgh :)
 
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lia41985

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Another question for Brian: Is the out and away move that's being commented on and prescribed here something that has made you reconsider the non-optimalness of a convex hand path? Also, I don't know if you saw my previous question but I was wondering if you think that starting a beginner out by learning to pitch would be a good way to go for most golfers (certainly not universal because there's always a need for individualization)?
 
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Soft Draw shows where I was going, huh?

Slightly stronger, yes.

Credit where credit's due. Absolutely. There are a few different threads being tied together here though, aren't there? I also recall arguments you've made about tour pro pitching (soft left wrist) and the secret to tour quality impact (shaft lean + shallow AoA) and even clubface control in NHA2.

Could you say a bit more about how the grip (and its strength) fits together with the release and AoA? Is there a link with these 2 other comments?

Famously, Hogan would out drive Nelson, and then Nelson would catch him on the fairway wood shot on Par 5s. Byron was less down, and probably had less spin loft.

Tiger made his biggest divots at the end of the Haney era. Popped up 3-woods, remember?
 
Brian, thanks for the response to Virtuoso's post, I really didn't know how to respond (and could not really understand what was even written and trust me it wasn't for a lack of time or effort) and your answer was very helpful. You've got an amazing talent at taking complicated concepts and turning it into something everyone can use. To paraphrase DC, "knowing it in all of it's complexity and teaching it in all of it's simplicity; that's genius." I can't wait for my lesson with you in Pittsburgh :)

Lia, it's great that Brian's response cleared up your understanding of my post, but I didn't understand it. Can you explain it to me?

If I say the axis for line up extends down the left forearm, and he says it's probably higher.....higher in what way, where, what angle, why?

If he says CP is a point around the bending of the wrists, I still don't understand exactly what that means, other than to say that it's a point between the hands, which is what I disagreed with in the first place.

Maybe Brian can elaborate?
 
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If almost "picking" the ball is optimal, then why did Hogan make divots with his 3-wood (which leads me to assume that he made significant divots with, say, a 6-iron).

"Picking" the ball isn't what it's about. It's about a shallow attack which promotes "bacon strips" instead of "beaver pelts." The less down you swing the less left you have to swing and your swing direction can be much more at the target.
 

dbl

New
Vituoso, taking some guesses on the lineup axis being higher up than you suggested, it could be in the upper arms (bicept), left shoulder, or somewhere perhaps outside the left arm (for example, the left target-ward side of some part of the arm). Those are some possible meanings I could get out of what he said, though obviously not the "last word." :)
 

lia41985

New member
Lia, it's great that Brian's response cleared up your understanding of my post, but I didn't understand it. Can you explain it to me?

If I say the axis for line up extends down the left forearm, and he says it's probably higher.....higher in what way, where, what angle, why?

If he says CP is a point around the bending of the wrists, I still don't understand exactly what that means, other than to say that it's a point between the hands, which is what I disagreed with in the first place.

Maybe Brian can elaborate?
Virtuoso,

If you take together what Brian has said and what the Michaels have said about the geometric center being off the club I think you'll come to understand that:

a.) The thing to line up is the sweetspot (its direction pointing towards the "true face" and being directed along the "true path") to create the appropriate D-plane.

b.) How the line-up happens isn't a matter strictly of isolating and studying a certain body part, be it the left wrist, left forearm, left shoulder, or whatever. Michael Jacobs, on his Facebook page, has a picture discussing anthropometry, the variation in human sizes. Because all humans vary in their physical make up, focusing on a certain physical component is folly because you're never going to be able to use that component as a standard measure across different golfers. So what does that mean?

c.) Embrace uncertainty! Basically, we're dealing with a golf swing (a complex motion that requires incredible coordination) across a population that varies widely, physically and of course mentally! Everyone is looking for a system where you can plug in an input and get an output, that is to say, in a certain swing model there's a built in notion that if you do this you'll get that. No. Because of all this variation we can't use a simple linear system to account for what's happening. So you've gotta forget about models because they're inherently limiting and as such, a reliance on a model will limit your effectiveness as both a student and teacher of this great game of golf. So what to do?

d.) Focus on what the club and ball are doing (shrink the system so you can focus on as few variables as possible). The club, in order to hit a certain shot, will have to get to a certain place (D-plane orientation) at a certain time (which will be dictated by speed). But even then, you can have two golfers, with say identical physical makeups (supremely unlikely) who will get the club in the same exact spot (again, very unlikely and in 3-D) but that doesn't mean they'll hit the same shot (produce the same Trackman/Flightscope numbers) if it doesn't happen right at impact which given all these variations, could be the most improbable thing of all. In the end you're dealing with the golfer that's in front of you and his desire to hit a certain shot. Thanks to Trackman/Flightscope we have more knowledge as to how shots are produced because we know what numbers are needed to produce the appropriate D plane. There's almost an infinite array of ways to do it but for the golfer in front of you there's only a few, maybe less ways, to make his motion work such that he can hit the shot he wants. So forget about a model which has the left forearm doing such and such with such axis around a hinge, etc. Brian's response didn't necessarily contain more information than yours. Rather, his post illustrated that there is a search that's on in trying to find out how the golfer is getting the club to do what it needs to do but you're post, which was very thoughtful and was obviously the product of much time and effort (which I greatly appreciate), introduced a complicated system with many built in assumptions. Trying to understand it was hard through no fault of your own. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Try focusing instead on what that 1.68" diameter ball is doing (and what the club is doing to get it to do that) and figure out what the best way is to get it in the darn hole in the fewest shots. I think that's probably the best project :)

e.) The most that can be said right now is that golf clubs are tangible physical things with varying makeups (just like humans) and that these inherent physical qualities may yield certain clues as to how they function optimally (by studying center of gravity, mass, and all that other complicated physics stuff that I'm absolutely not an expert at). Given these physical characteristics the club will tend towards moving a certain way once positioned in a certain way and with a certain input of force. I view the discussion about the coupling point and the swing's "true center" in this regard. But again, we are talking about tendencies, not a model, necessarily.

I hope that's clear. If not, I'm more than willing to clear it up as best as I can.
 
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Simple Question

This thread has mentioned that the golfer never wants their hands to go "to the ball." What does that mean? Does this have to do with swinging left?
 
Within this thread i think there are two (related) conversations about hand direction:

1. At the top of the backswing, the new thinking is that the hands should move away from the target (which is not the same as going to the ball)...in other words move the hands parallel to the ground at beginning of 'downswing'.

2. At impact, the hand should be moving 'up and in'. Lowpoint for the hands occurs before low point of the club. IMHO, this can occur in the context of swinging left or swinging right....so moving the hands 'up and in' is not the same as swinging left.
 
I think it means a hand path that is too outward.The hand path should be concave and not convex.

This would be an example of the hands going to the ball and a convex hand path.

Takeaway - Left arm Counter rotation - shank - YouTube

Brian certainly doesn't advocate a convex hand path. But I don't think he advocates a concave hand path either. Watch the video below beginning at 2:55 in:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="400" height="200" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
 
A key element of this release that Brian and Michael are discovering and teaching is the fact that it should, ideally, occur with the body stable (something Tiger definitely struggles with). Brian said that pivoting like crazy is crazy. People took that as a rip on no-shift pivots but it's also an admonishment of what could be termed an over-pivot. Michael and Kevin have multiple times discussed the ideas of an over-turned and over-leaned pivot and Brian has also presented Ben Doyle's milk crate pivot idea. Pivoting like crazy is crazy and there's a continuum of pivots and the extremes are what's crazy.

I'm having trouble grasping "Pivoting like crazy is crazy." It would probably be helpful if I could see real-world examples of "extreme" on the continuum of pivots. What are the differences between "extreme" pivots and, say, Hogan and Sergio (whose hips were very, very open by the time they reached impact)?
 

ej20

New
Brian certainly doesn't advocate a convex hand path. But I don't think he advocates a concave hand path either. Watch the video below beginning at 2:55 in:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="400" height="200" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '/20641989']);" href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '/user1093431']);" href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '']);" href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Sure,if you use Sergio as the model.How many can swing it like him?Most touring pros have a concave handpath.I believe Hogan had a concave handpath albeit very small.
 
I'm having trouble grasping "Pivoting like crazy is crazy." It would probably be helpful if I could see real-world examples of "extreme" on the continuum of pivots. What are the differences between "extreme" pivots and, say, Hogan and Sergio (whose hips were very, very open by the time they reached impact)?

"pivoting like crazy" can make club delivery erratic which results in unuseable shots IMO.
 
I'm having trouble grasping "Pivoting like crazy is crazy." It would probably be helpful if I could see real-world examples of "extreme" on the continuum of pivots. What are the differences between "extreme" pivots and, say, Hogan and Sergio (whose hips were very, very open by the time they reached impact)?

Pivoting like crazy removes the slack, forces the hand path more horizontal. Check out the Sergio and the tumble thread. Lot's of good stuff in there.

If your looking for extreme visual evidence, stop watching tour player swings. Most of their shots are "useable". They didn't pivot like crazy to get their hips open at impact, they just pivoted.
 
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Pivoting like crazy removes the slack, forces the hand path more horizontal. Check out the Sergio and the tumble thread. Lot's of good stuff in there.

If your looking for extreme visual evidence, stop watching tour player swings. Most of their shots are "useable". They didn't pivot like crazy to get their hips open at impact, they just pivoted.

What I'm asking for are the differences between tour players and hackers who apparently pivot like crazy.

The only example I can think of of hackers "pivoting like crazy" is those who "spin out" of the shot. In other words, they largely rotate around their right foot rather than their left foot. However, it seems to me that their problem isn't that they're "pivoting like crazy." It's that they're failing to get their weight on the left leg before they rotate.
 
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