Brian Manzella
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A that is THAT....
A thread that has been euthanized.
Thanks for all the posts.
A thread that has been euthanized.
Thanks for all the posts.
A controversial subject
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The left shoulder is no illusion, Ed. Do you think you retain lag until both arms straight? With regards to lag, Qualitative or quantitative? Where does lag cease to exist in your imaginary model? Please reference this lag using clock as a reference. (impact 6 o'clock, the ever important both arms straight position 8 o'clock,etc.)
Imagine this? Imagine that?
We don't imagine a golf swing, its a reality. You can't have imaginary ball and sockets coming out of your chest with imaginary rope through your hands to the club.
Reality dictates that we use our anatomy to create a real swing using real existing body parts.
I must warn you, Ed! When you answer the three questions at the top of this post, this non-sense of yours will come to a screeching halt. Please be a gentleman. No profane language. Cease and desist perpetuating this fallacy.
Imagine this? Imagine that?
We don't imagine a golf swing, its a reality. You can't have imaginary ball and sockets coming out of your chest with imaginary rope through your hands to the club.
Reality dictates that we use our anatomy to create a real swing using real existing body parts.
I must warn you, Ed! When you answer the three questions at the top of this post, this non-sense of yours will come to a screeching halt. Please be a gentleman. No profane language. Cease and desist perpetuating this fallacy.
Interesting, now that Armoural has understood what I am saying in the other thread, this thread is reopened and Corky is poster #1.
http://d4358519.s74.snitz.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1256
In any case Corky - there is a fundamental area you are not understanding in your critic of 'imagining'. The force you are creating and applying does not always 'fit' to a body part. The force is GENERATED by the body, but it is not 'contained in', it moves through, and around, in 3 dimensional space - much like the motion moves down a cracking whip. It seems you are not able to understand this concept and are unable to grasp that the FORCE is separate from the BODY that generates it, in an important way.
Lag ceases to exist in my view, at both arms straight. That is lag 'pressure'. You must maintain lag until that point in a good swing. At impact the 'whip' motion is IN THE HANDS (see Hogan p 102, and the pic I posted of him). You must 'straighten the rope' at both arms straight. Send the FORCE to both arms straight. Both arms straight is ALWAYS in front of the ball, it is always at 90 degrees to the shoulder line. The angle of the shoulder line can and will vary based on ball position, club length and desired impact hand location.
I believe I summed up the clock in the other thread, as well as impact being DOWNWARD yet in the 'upward' secion of the circle. All of this explaining MORE fully what I believe Homer knew, but he had made a false assumption about the left shoulder which changed his perspective.
As I said, now that at least someone, Armourall, understands my position (see other thread), I will gladly live up to my statement about agreeing to disagree if people wish. I will continue to answer questions if people wish as well.
EdZ, Armourall tells you," your straying further outside the box." And you think your starting to rally some support? Ed you do live in a fantasy world?
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armourall
52 Posts
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 15:04:44
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quote:
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Originally posted by EdZ
Now I know you are getting it armourall!
It is NOT an upward CONTACT, it IS a DOWNward blow thanks to how you position the 'circle' relative to the ground, and right wrist bent, but if you were to imagine the 'full' circle, it would be considered in the 'upward portion' of that circle.
Therefore you have ENSURED that you have lag every time because of how you have positioned the circle, with its 'true' radius under the ground.
And because it is under the ground, and you have right wrist bend, the entire thing LOOKS like an elipse. It also LOOKS like the left arm is the 'flail'. And the more right wrist bend and axis tilt (lowered right shoulder on plane), the more you ensure you contact the ball WELL BEFORE you have given up lag at full radius.
Does that clear it up for you armourall?
All the while, you are thrusting to both arms straight, the ONLY time you reach the full radius of the true swing circle.
I ask that some of you incubate on this for a while before responding.
thanks armourall
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Straying farther outside the box...
If this is the "true" flail, why not position the ball relative to the "true" low point (i.e., place the ball between the center of the stance and right foot)? (End Quote)
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armourall
52 Posts
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 15:04:44
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quote:
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Originally posted by EdZ
Now I know you are getting it armourall!
It is NOT an upward CONTACT, it IS a DOWNward blow thanks to how you position the 'circle' relative to the ground, and right wrist bent, but if you were to imagine the 'full' circle, it would be considered in the 'upward portion' of that circle.
Therefore you have ENSURED that you have lag every time because of how you have positioned the circle, with its 'true' radius under the ground.
And because it is under the ground, and you have right wrist bend, the entire thing LOOKS like an elipse. It also LOOKS like the left arm is the 'flail'. And the more right wrist bend and axis tilt (lowered right shoulder on plane), the more you ensure you contact the ball WELL BEFORE you have given up lag at full radius.
Does that clear it up for you armourall?
All the while, you are thrusting to both arms straight, the ONLY time you reach the full radius of the true swing circle.
I ask that some of you incubate on this for a while before responding.
thanks armourall
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Straying farther outside the box...
If this is the "true" flail, why not position the ball relative to the "true" low point (i.e., place the ball between the center of the stance and right foot)? (End Quote)
Not that 'I' am straying outside the box, but that you must stray outside of the box to understand a new perspective.
Have you ever done that drill Corky, do you know what it refers to?
So now rather than agree to disagree, you agree to insist you are correct, yet you have provided no supporting evidence for your view? I have supported my perspective with pictures of top players. How have you supported your position? Remember the key thing you and others have often confused - I am talking about the FORCE you create and apply, and your left shoulder view is talking about the CLUB. There is a difference.
So if you think you can argue that the FORCE you create and apply is centered in the 'moving' left shoulder, I'm all for it, I've been asking for ANYONE to defend that position for nearly 30 pages of posts and it has yet to be done.
I'm open to learning your view of the FORCE, I already understand your view of the CLUB.
Have you ever done that drill Corky, do you know what it refers to?
So now rather than agree to disagree, you agree to insist you are correct, yet you have provided no supporting evidence for your view? I have supported my perspective with pictures of top players. How have you supported your position? Remember the key thing you and others have often confused - I am talking about the FORCE you create and apply, and your left shoulder view is talking about the CLUB. There is a difference.
So if you think you can argue that the FORCE you create and apply is centered in the 'moving' left shoulder, I'm all for it, I've been asking for ANYONE to defend that position for nearly 30 pages of posts and it has yet to be done.
I'm open to learning your view of the FORCE, I already understand your view of the CLUB.
Lag ceases to exist way before both arms straight! Pictures don't lie! The very bases for getting to this all important position of your was to sustain and prolong lag. If your premise was accurate, as you say below, "you must maintain lag until this point", then where is the lag. If there were lag until both arms straight 90degrees in front of shoulders. I would owe you an apology. I would have to conclude based on the evidence that you were right. Unfortunatly for you ,Ed, the left shoulder is concluded to be the center by the evidence that lag is lost immediately after the alignment of left shoulder, hands, and clubshaft.
[/quote]
Interesting, now that Armoural has understood what I am saying in the other thread, this thread is reopened and Corky is poster #1.
In any case Corky - there is a fundamental area you are not understanding in your critic of 'imagining'. The force you are creating and applying does not always 'fit' to a body part. The force is GENERATED by the body, but it is not 'contained in', it moves through, and around, in 3 dimensional space - much like the motion moves down a cracking whip. It seems you are not able to understand this concept and are unable to grasp that the FORCE is separate from the BODY that generates it, in an important way.
Lag ceases to exist in my view, at both arms straight. That is lag 'pressure'. You must maintain lag until that point in a good swing. At impact the 'whip' motion is IN THE HANDS (see Hogan p 102, and the pic I posted of him). You must 'straighten the rope' at both arms straight. Send the FORCE to both arms straight. Both arms straight is ALWAYS in front of the ball, it is always at 90 degrees to the shoulder line. The angle of the shoulder line can and will vary based on ball position, club length and desired impact hand location.
I believe I summed up the clock in the other thread, as well as impact being DOWNWARD yet in the 'upward' secion of the circle. All of this explaining MORE fully what I believe Homer knew, but he had made a false assumption about the left shoulder which changed his perspective.
[/quote]
Corky - look at old pictures of Picard, Morrison, Thompson ect - notice how much throw away is occuring very soon after impact?
Now compare to modern players. Notice how much longer they maintain lag?
There is a trend here yes? Even in those old pictures, if you compare the best ball strikers, the longest hitters, you will see they maintain lag LONGER than shorter hitters.
That still holds true for the most part - the longer you can maintain it, the better. Tiger does this very well.
There is a wonderful picture of McDonald Smith at both arms straight (in Morrison's first book).
In any case AT IMPACT you can see that lag is still maintained by all, or they wouldn't hit decent shots very often. The both arms straight position is the 'limit' to which you can maintain lag, it is the most efficient application of force. That doesn't mean you can't hit good shots giving up lag soon after impact, that means you should do your best to SUSTAIN THE LINE OF COMPRESSION by taking lag to both arms straight, maintaining as long as YOU can past impact.
Nothing about that supports your position of the left shoulder center of FORCE, if anything it supports why my view is important to understand.
Now compare to modern players. Notice how much longer they maintain lag?
There is a trend here yes? Even in those old pictures, if you compare the best ball strikers, the longest hitters, you will see they maintain lag LONGER than shorter hitters.
That still holds true for the most part - the longer you can maintain it, the better. Tiger does this very well.
There is a wonderful picture of McDonald Smith at both arms straight (in Morrison's first book).
In any case AT IMPACT you can see that lag is still maintained by all, or they wouldn't hit decent shots very often. The both arms straight position is the 'limit' to which you can maintain lag, it is the most efficient application of force. That doesn't mean you can't hit good shots giving up lag soon after impact, that means you should do your best to SUSTAIN THE LINE OF COMPRESSION by taking lag to both arms straight, maintaining as long as YOU can past impact.
Nothing about that supports your position of the left shoulder center of FORCE, if anything it supports why my view is important to understand.
I'm technically challenged. Unable to put a picture in my message. Any help would be much appreciated! I'm trying to put page 183 of Golf Digest Nov. 2004 or similar picture if easier. The point is pretty clear. No more room for misunderstandings.
Ed, picture demonstates that lag cannot be maintained until both arms straight, 45 degrees, etc. etc. You can't have lag up there if the clubhead is already ahead of the clubshaft inches after impact. You don't retain lag anywhere near where you proposed you could. Could you, Ed?
Ed, picture demonstates that lag cannot be maintained until both arms straight, 45 degrees, etc. etc. You can't have lag up there if the clubhead is already ahead of the clubshaft inches after impact. You don't retain lag anywhere near where you proposed you could. Could you, Ed?
Only you could see that the term "straying" would have a positive connotation. "I hit a drive that strayed to the right and found a pond". You are hilarious. I'll change my position then, Armourall is a strong advocate of your position.
Ed, keep using ambiguous language it will allow you some wiggle room to say that we all misunderstand you!
Anyway you slice it Ed, we are just using our bodys as machines, applying physics, anatomy, gravity to propel a ball with an implement called a club. Not much mystical about it! Simple machines at work. Your hocus pocus ideas do not hold water. Sorry!
Ed, keep using ambiguous language it will allow you some wiggle room to say that we all misunderstand you!
Anyway you slice it Ed, we are just using our bodys as machines, applying physics, anatomy, gravity to propel a ball with an implement called a club. Not much mystical about it! Simple machines at work. Your hocus pocus ideas do not hold water. Sorry!
They don't maintain lag beyond the vertical allignments of the swing center(left Shoulder). Pictures don't lie ,Ed!
Page 183 Nov 04' Golf digest.
Ed, is the clubhead ahead of the shaft immediately after the vertical alignments of left shoulder, hands, and clubshaft?
Yes! No ambiguity! No misunderstanding!
Therefore swing center lies at left shoulder. Case closed!
Page 183 Nov 04' Golf digest.
Ed, is the clubhead ahead of the shaft immediately after the vertical alignments of left shoulder, hands, and clubshaft?
Yes! No ambiguity! No misunderstanding!
Therefore swing center lies at left shoulder. Case closed!
You really must stop responding like Bush. Insisting you are correct, does not make you correct corky! No WMD's, losses of jobs, chaos in a 'free' iraq, holding people without trial - yet it is a rosey world in the land of illusions.
When does the clubhead pass the 'center line' in your picture, it is THAT line that represents sustaining lag in my view. We agree that it must not pass the left wrist - because that is HOW the force is generated, it is not THE force you have generated.
Again - you speak of the club, I speak of the FORCE you generate and apply.
When does the clubhead pass the 'center line' in your picture, it is THAT line that represents sustaining lag in my view. We agree that it must not pass the left wrist - because that is HOW the force is generated, it is not THE force you have generated.
Again - you speak of the club, I speak of the FORCE you generate and apply.
Which article is that, Corky? Is it posted online?
http://www.golfdigest.com/magazines/index.ssf?/gdmag/2004/11/index.html
Ed,live in the physical world, dude. Lag is shaft lag, not some invisible force. Your mumbo jumbo is irrelevant to the physical world.
Maintain lag, bent right arm, clubhead strikes little ball, little ball goes forward, clubhead strikes big ball, dirt/sand/grass goes forward, both arms straight, left shoulder/left arm/left hand/clubshaft aligned, and lag be gone.
It's all in the pretty picture on Page 183 in Golf Digest Nov. 2004.
I know I'm wasting my time, but hey, I enjoy wrestlin' with the occassional pig and gettin' dirty an' all as much as the next guy.
quote:Originally posted by efnef
Ed,live in the physical world, dude. Lag is shaft lag, not some invisible force. Your mumbo jumbo is irrelevant to the physical world.
Maintain lag, bent right arm, clubhead strikes little ball, little ball goes forward, clubhead strikes big ball, dirt/sand/grass goes forward, both arms straight, left shoulder/left arm/left hand/clubshaft aligned, and lag be gone.
It's all in the pretty picture on Page 183 in Golf Digest Nov. 2004.
I know I'm wasting my time, but hey, I enjoy wrestlin' with the occassional pig and gettin' dirty an' all as much as the next guy.
Perhaps at some point you will see the irony in your post. Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I DO live in the 'physical' world. If you undersand my position, you will see that.
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