A controversial subject
- Thread starter Ringer
- Start date
- Status
I have read the EdZ drills. The impression one gets by reading your stuff is that you are advocating a pure circle swing, which no one does, I like the example of Martin Hall on the TGC website where he is talking about mass in the swing and shows the pictures of wide back narrow down. I don't mean this in a negative way because I'm sure your very good at what you do, but I think part of the problem here is that you do nopt have a very strong command of the English language, i think you know what you want to say, but you seem to get ahead of yourself and it makes it a little difficult for other people to follow you. That would be my critique of how the Edz drills are written on the FGI site. I am not going to attack you, I disagree with some of your non-golf statements strongly, but the best way for this whole thing to end is for this to be presented as clearly as possible. Now you have asked for everyone to disprove you, can you offer proof by means of pics (use Redgoats site maybe) or something else that can clarify your point, And then maybe we can get a counterpount from the opposition.
Thank you bsbsbs, I appreciate genuine conversation. I am not advocating a pure circle swing of the club at all. I think the point of confusion there is that I am talking about swinging 'inside' the maximum possible circle you could swing on (both arms straight). A 'whip' motion, inside that circle. That maximum possible circle is only met at one point, that of both arms straight. I do get ahead of myself, yes. I am aware of that. My wife often jokes with me that "I speak Chinese" and "she speaks Russian", which if you know anything about the two languages, I think is very accurate. In Chinese, the burden is put on the listener to understand, and in Russian, the speaker is, shall we say, verbose. She speaks both languages, so I'll take her word for it. Yes, I am more abstract at times. There are some on the board that are quite literal. Hence, misunderstanding. I will gladly clear up any questions given civil conversation. My appologies for offending you (but not for my beliefs).
Perhaps Ringer or Mathew can contribute some pics? Although I should mention that this will not show us exactly what I am talking about, as you can't draw a line on a 'force', but you can draw them in a way that would help people understand my position.
I will again mention the pic at the top of this page as good reference point. I know Redgoat had some pics a while back with a trace of the circle of the hands, so I'll look for it.
Perhaps Ringer or Mathew can contribute some pics? Although I should mention that this will not show us exactly what I am talking about, as you can't draw a line on a 'force', but you can draw them in a way that would help people understand my position.
I will again mention the pic at the top of this page as good reference point. I know Redgoat had some pics a while back with a trace of the circle of the hands, so I'll look for it.
From my own observation and I would definitely like input here from both sides (friendly input) because I am not a TGM expert but I am a good enough golfer that I can shoot par on any day (I did not say everyday) of the week. So here goes...
At the point were both arms are straight, the club is roughly 2 ft past the ball and several inches off the ground (I know Mike Austin says both arms straight at impact, but he does not do that) You can look at several pics on Redgoats site to varify this. There is particularly a good one of Nicholas Fasth at both arms straight. Jack Nicklaus used to speak of a drill where he would start his swing from both arms straight, in a relation that I described earlier from the ball and go from there. Comments.??
At the point were both arms are straight, the club is roughly 2 ft past the ball and several inches off the ground (I know Mike Austin says both arms straight at impact, but he does not do that) You can look at several pics on Redgoats site to varify this. There is particularly a good one of Nicholas Fasth at both arms straight. Jack Nicklaus used to speak of a drill where he would start his swing from both arms straight, in a relation that I described earlier from the ball and go from there. Comments.??
There are two things you must do to be a good player: First, keep your Left Wrist Flat through Impact. Second, swing through the Ball, not at the Ball.
In the Nicklaus drill from the Follow-Through Position (8-11), the swing over the top of the Ball in the Backstroke encourages a swing through the Ball on the Downstroke. Said another way, it discourages Quitting (the Second Snare 3-F-7-B).
Turfspanker
New
Ed,
Spanker here again. Terribly sorry for breaking my single post promise but I'm seeking clarity on the EdZ Thesis. I'll ask again for a complete CLEAR thesis because I get new information with each post you make. Please don't point me to a drill.
Based on the new information above, I'm beginning, I think, to visualize your concept. I know how important that is to you so I'll try to SEE what you are saying. But since I'm one of those silly literal people I would love for you to WRITE your thesis plainly.
If I had a 3 foot rope about 5/8 thick and gave it a good swing (whip) motion, would I experience enlightenment?
Thanks,
Spanker
Sorry, Ed. On most days I'm a Hitter. No PP#4 for me, although I do feel I have plenty of mass participating at impact.
Understand, maybe, but you'll still have to consider me on the other side of the fence on this one. I just can't see how an "imaginary" flail has more relevance than one I can see and feel. But best of luck to ya.[8D]
Turfspanker
New
Thank ya kindly Ace. We'uns here in the Lone Star State wear big ole boots for this kinda work. Good fer ride'n, two-step'n, wade'n in ta muck, and other unmentionables. We like our talk'n straight up, so I don't frequent here much.
All Y'all keep up the good work.
Spanker
Perhaps if I put this in TGM specific terms some of you will better understand my position:
1) 2K is incorrect in ONE VERY IMPORTANT DETAIL - the 'handle' of the flail is NOT THE LEFT ARM, it is the line from the swing center to the hands (this is the most basic and complete way to view my position)
2) the justification in 2H for 'moving centers' is no longer needed, and is inaccurate. The centers are the same, the planes are not.
3) It is the HANDS that move the flail, one pulling, one pushing. you CAN both HIT and SWING because you can both pull, AND push on this correct 2K golfers flail.
5) this correction to 2K allows for a greatly simplified visual image of the swing, and the plane - the plane that this 'line' travels back and through (Anika does a great job of this). The plane that the HANDS travel on, back and through, in relation to the center point. This correction also reconciles wheel rim, and wheel spoke, as discussed by Homer.
Most importantly - this correction MORE fully supports the rest of TGM's core concepts. Impact still looks the same, because at impact this corrected 2k flail is basically against the INSIDE of the left wrist, quite literally page 102 of Hogan's 5 lessons. At that point the end of this corrected flail IS the raised wrist bone. Remember, the line is perpendicular to the shoulder line.
Evidence for this position being correct (aside from the above) includes it explaining why a more forward ball position requires MORE right wrist bend, and a centered ball position requires less right wrist bend. It also explains the many players (goosen for example, or even De La Torre, or even those on the Austin crew who have a 'traditional' flail per 2k) that appear to violate 2K as Homer wrote it, but do not under my corrected view of 2K.
For an effective swing visual, simply imagine this corrected flail in 2k, with its handle between your arms, as a wheel spoke, and your hands as the wheel rim. Or alternately, imagine a string from your center and a rock IN your hands.
I hope this clarifies my position.
Thank you to those genuine enough to have civil conversation and debate.
EdZ [8D]
1) 2K is incorrect in ONE VERY IMPORTANT DETAIL - the 'handle' of the flail is NOT THE LEFT ARM, it is the line from the swing center to the hands (this is the most basic and complete way to view my position)
2) the justification in 2H for 'moving centers' is no longer needed, and is inaccurate. The centers are the same, the planes are not.
3) It is the HANDS that move the flail, one pulling, one pushing. you CAN both HIT and SWING because you can both pull, AND push on this correct 2K golfers flail.
5) this correction to 2K allows for a greatly simplified visual image of the swing, and the plane - the plane that this 'line' travels back and through (Anika does a great job of this). The plane that the HANDS travel on, back and through, in relation to the center point. This correction also reconciles wheel rim, and wheel spoke, as discussed by Homer.
Most importantly - this correction MORE fully supports the rest of TGM's core concepts. Impact still looks the same, because at impact this corrected 2k flail is basically against the INSIDE of the left wrist, quite literally page 102 of Hogan's 5 lessons. At that point the end of this corrected flail IS the raised wrist bone. Remember, the line is perpendicular to the shoulder line.
Evidence for this position being correct (aside from the above) includes it explaining why a more forward ball position requires MORE right wrist bend, and a centered ball position requires less right wrist bend. It also explains the many players (goosen for example, or even De La Torre, or even those on the Austin crew who have a 'traditional' flail per 2k) that appear to violate 2K as Homer wrote it, but do not under my corrected view of 2K.
For an effective swing visual, simply imagine this corrected flail in 2k, with its handle between your arms, as a wheel spoke, and your hands as the wheel rim. Or alternately, imagine a string from your center and a rock IN your hands.
I hope this clarifies my position.
Thank you to those genuine enough to have civil conversation and debate.
EdZ [8D]
See this pic of Hogan at impact, imagine that line from center to the left wrist bone.
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/80516/1/3060934
Or this series of Mickey Wright, see that line
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/90714
not the best angle, but this one of Tiger shows the plane (wheel rim) well (top and bottom of right pics)
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/80234
more good pics showing Tiger, see that line
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/80234/1/3117535
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/80516/1/3060934
Or this series of Mickey Wright, see that line
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/90714
not the best angle, but this one of Tiger shows the plane (wheel rim) well (top and bottom of right pics)
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/80234
more good pics showing Tiger, see that line
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/80234/1/3117535
First: I just woke the family screaming. How many damn times do you have to insist and post this cockamamy idea of yours? Repeating it fails to correct it. 2K is not incorrect. Elucidation of an incorrect position fails to make it correct, just easier to see that it isn’t. Thank you for the clarification of failed position for us to see again.
The body has a stable center as the swing, the flail moves.
My driver has the least right bend and the furthest ball placement from my center. My wedges have the most bend of the right and the most centered (sometimes more to the right) ball position. We may be playing to different games here, EdZ.
Good luck Edz, run this by the boys over on the SA forum, see what they think. Give it about a year.
The body has a stable center as the swing, the flail moves.
My driver has the least right bend and the furthest ball placement from my center. My wedges have the most bend of the right and the most centered (sometimes more to the right) ball position. We may be playing to different games here, EdZ.
Good luck Edz, run this by the boys over on the SA forum, see what they think. Give it about a year.
njmp - you are ignoring all the evidence I posted. If you feel that evidence is incorrect, state your corrections. Be specific. I appreciate that you feel Homer was correct. Support your position. I posted pics which verify my view.
Still, not one of you has supported your position. Use the pics I posted.
As for ball position vs right wrist bend, club length is also a factor. Given the SAME club (an 8 iron for example), a more forward ball position REQUIRES more right wrist bend, and a lower right shoulder. Why, because that center line is the true handle of the flail, not the left arm.
Still, not one of you has supported your position. Use the pics I posted.
As for ball position vs right wrist bend, club length is also a factor. Given the SAME club (an 8 iron for example), a more forward ball position REQUIRES more right wrist bend, and a lower right shoulder. Why, because that center line is the true handle of the flail, not the left arm.
- Status