Accumulator #3

[Brian Manzella]

Joe.

I entirely disagree.

How the club MAY BE MOVED, has nothing to do with how it OUGHT to be moved.

THis is—however—a PERFECT example of why the book is where it is today.`

 

[David Alford]

Brian wrote:
<How the club MAY BE MOVED, has nothing to do with how it OUGHT to be moved.

THis is—however—a PERFECT example of why the book is where it is today.`>

BINGO!

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

My critics here should just accept, I have a low tolerance for instructions that don't make sense, are hard to understand, and worse, contain omissions or errors. I'm not alone in this...! It's nothing personal with HK. I find a lot that is admirable in his goals, some or all of which which I probably share.

David, what is your take on what is meant by the TGM term ‘accumulator’? What do you think is the entity being accumulated?

 

[David Alford]

Mandrin, that is a good question and in fact, I was just about to ask for HK's own definition. What is being accumulated should be power. Therefore "accumulator" should be the same as "power source" or "power multiplier" which is slightly different, but whether it is defined in the book, I know not since I don't have a copy handy.

 

[mandrin]

<center>FUNDAMENTALS</center>
“1-A. LAW All the laws operating in a Golf Stroke- Force and Motion, Geometry and Trigonometry, Materials ans Structure, etc., etc., have been known since the days of Newton. No instructor, player or congressman put these laws into anything. Nor can they or anyone ese be exempted from compliance with them. Laws are the Modus Operandi of their Principle."

David, since Homer put his work clearly forward as being ruled by the laws of science it is evident that this very important term/concept of accumulator should be understood from a scientific perspective. Strictly speaking power can’t not be accumulated, power is the rate of doing work or the rate of using energy.

Actually my question is more of a teaser to make TGMers aware that they are routinely and heavily engaged in discussions of accumulators and likely can’t define what accumulators accumulate, other than simply citing the book which leads to circular reasoning. I feel that it should simply be taken as a metaphor. []

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

<center>FUNDAMENTALS</center>
“1-A. LAW All the laws operating in a Golf Stroke- Force and Motion, Geometry and Trigonometry, Materials ans Structure, etc., etc., have been known since the days of Newton. No instructor, player or congressman put these laws into anything. Nor can they or anyone ese be exempted from compliance with them. Laws are the Modus Operandi of their Principle."

David, since Homer put his work clearly forward as being ruled by the laws of science it is evident that this very important term/concept of accumulator should be understood from a scientific perspective. Strictly speaking power can’t not be accumulated, power is the rate of doing work or the rate of using energy.

Actually my question is more of a teaser to make TGMers aware that they are routinely and heavily engaged in discussions of accumulators and likely can’t define what accumulators accumulate, other than simply citing the book which leads to circular reasoning. I feel that it should simply be taken as a metaphor. []

Dude, you just went down this road about 4 months ago. Do we really have to go there again?

 

[c21heel]

Mandrin, you just gave me a headache. Can you repeat all that information in Tarheel language?

 

[David Alford]

<David, since Homer put his work clearly forward as being ruled by the laws of science it is evident that this very important term/concept of accumulator should be understood from a scientific perspective. Strictly speaking power can’t not be accumulated, power is the rate of doing work or the rate of using energy.

Actually my question is more of a teaser to make TGMers aware that they are routinely and heavily engaged in discussions of accumulators and likely can’t define what accumulators accumulate, other than simply citing the book which leads to circular reasoning. I feel that it should simply be taken as a metaphor.>

Don't see a definition there. As to what "power" means, that depends. E.g., what "power binocular is that?". He should have defined power accumulator.

 

[tourdeep]

David...

"He should have defined power accumulator".

He did.
6-B-0

 

[cdog]

Accumulators accumulate ANGLES, out of line conditions, that are then removed or straightened out by rotation, thrust, and combination.

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Don't see a definition there. As to what "power" means, that depends. E.g., what "power binocular is that?". He should have defined power accumulator.

David, there is a succinct reference in the glossary:
“Golf - Loaded Accumulators are potential energy - The orbiting Clubhead is kinetic energy.”

In chapter 6 there are several other brief indications:
- Power accumulators are the out of line condition of power package components
- First power accumulator - hitter’s muscle power accumulator
- Second power accumulator - velocity accumulator

To make a long story short - creating angles (out of line conditions) between linked segments does not equal accumulating potential energy. The real reason for creating angles is actually very simple - it takes some finite time to accelerate a clubhead to high speed at impact.

Setting the various angles allows
-1- to have adequate length of arc for the clubhead, allowing time for the torque developing muscles to generate satisfactory speed for the clubhead at impact.
-2- furthermore, to reduce the angular moment of inertia helping to create maximum clubhead velocity for a given input torque(s).

The golfer, ready to swing down, can perhaps be compared to a 100m sprinter ready in the blocks - they both take an optimum start position but are not accumulating any ‘power’. They are not ‘cranking’ up any spring to be unloaded subsequently - they are simply settling into an optimum departure configuration. Energy/power is not generated by the backswing, it is generated mainly in the first part of the downswing and then subsequently transferred into the clubhead.

 

[MizunoJoe]

"They are not ‘cranking’ up any spring to be unloaded"

"They" doesn't include include a guy named Jack, who describes his procedure as a maximum coil backswing which produces a ground-up, auto-unwinding downswing triggered by slamming his left heel into the ground. He says that the "cranked up spring" creates the downswing.

 

[mandrin]

MizunoJoe, there is feel and there is real. It constitutes the eternal obscure battlefield of golfers, golf literature and golf forums.

A spring when loaded will when released transform its potential energy into kinetic energy of motion.

A golfer when really letting go at the top will simply go limp and the club will drop behind him.

A human body is simply not made like a spring and believing otherwise belongs to the typical pseudo-science golf talk.

 

[MizunoJoe]

You sorely misunderstand the dynamics here. The golfer doesn't "let go" at the top. The tightly coiled shoulders are jump started by the hips and there is an auto unwinding aided and abetted by the core muscles. By keeping the right shoulder constrained from going "out", the shoulders move downplane.

 

[David Alford]

Mandrin, that's correct. However, perform this experiment. Hold your right arm out in front of you parallel to the ground (straight out or bent, it doesn't matter). Put your left hand on top of the right hand. Next, try to raise the right hand/arm while restaining any upward movement by the left.

Next, release the left's restraint. THE RIGHT HAND/ARM SPRINGS UPWARD.

Now at the top of the golf swing, there is no one's hand restraining the left arm, shoulders, or torso. However, the "coil" wants to unwind,
so it is similiar to the effect you can observe in the experiment above.

 

[David Alford]

<David...

<"He should have defined power accumulator".

He did.
6-B-0>

Please give 6-B-0 as I don't have the book handy. Did you mean 6-B-3-0?

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

<David...

<"He should have defined power accumulator".

He did.
6-B-0>

Please give 6-B-0 as I don't have the book handy. Did you mean 6-B-3-0?

6-B-0 GENERAL Force is applied to the Ball through the Lever Assemblies. Power is applied to the Lever Assemblies through Pressure Points. Power is applied to the Pressure Points by Power Accumulators. Power Accumulators are out-of-line conditions of the Power Package Components. Out-of-line simply means “not in a straight line from end to end.” Releasing them to seek their in-line condition releases their stored potential. Varying the amount of out-of-line and/or the amount of muscular effort will vary the accumulation of Power that can be Released by the selected Triggering action. Accumulators are numbered in the order of their probable widest use in Stroke Type Combinations.

Clubhead Lag (6-C) is, of course, and out-of-line condition in the Power Package but is not considered an Accumulator because its “Release” is a power loss. Again, Lag and Drag in the Pivot train (6-M-1) are out-of-line conditions also (but not of the Power Package) and likewise are not “Released.” Else the Swing Radius of the Stroke would be shortened – which is also a power loss. Swing Radius is what makes it harder to get a balanced 20 foot board around a corner than a 5-foot board. A hanging Driver weighs less than one pound, but at arms length the deltoids (2-M-3) are supporting about four pounds – considering the arm weight as negligible. But with arm and club parallel to the ground, the Wrist is supporting close to six pounds and the deltoids about ten. From the Feet the total moment of Inertia increases proportionately to Pivot Lag. So the Clubhead (or Primary Lever Assembly) whose Swing Radius extends to the feet is much harder to decelerate during Impact. Which means better Clubhead Speed at Separation. See 2-E.

 

[tourdeep]

David...

a one liner in red from 6-B-0. Mandrin's post expands and refers further definition from glossary.

David, there is a succinct reference in the glossary:
“Golf - Loaded Accumulators are potential energy - The orbiting Clubhead is kinetic energy.”

In chapter 6 there are several other brief indications:
- Power accumulators are the out of line condition of power package components
- First power accumulator - hitter’s muscle power accumulator
- Second power accumulator - velocity accumulator

6-B-3-0
did not find any direct reference to its definition other than as a component of one of the 4 accumulators. 1-0,2-0,3-0,4-0 refers to the 4 accumulators. Not trying to insult intelligence. Rather, to expose where I am with this ez to read yellow book...!

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Don't see a definition there. As to what "power" means, that depends. E.g., what "power binocular is that?". He should have defined power accumulator.

David, there is a succinct reference in the glossary:
“Golf - Loaded Accumulators are potential energy - The orbiting Clubhead is kinetic energy.”

In chapter 6 there are several other brief indications:
- Power accumulators are the out of line condition of power package components
- First power accumulator - hitter’s muscle power accumulator
- Second power accumulator - velocity accumulator

To make a long story short - creating angles (out of line conditions) between linked segments does not equal accumulating potential energy. The real reason for creating angles is actually very simple - it takes some finite time to accelerate a clubhead to high speed at impact.

Setting the various angles allows
-1- to have adequate length of arc for the clubhead, allowing time for the torque developing muscles to generate satisfactory speed for the clubhead at impact.

Are you sure, you got this right? Setting the angles gives you a smaller lenght of arc. And - using your reasoning - gives you less time for acceleration. Just what you don't want.

Goes to explain why you like single axis golfing?

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

-2- furthermore, to reduce the angular moment of inertia helping to create maximum clubhead velocity for a given input torque(s).

Carefull there, Hoss! You are dangerously close to proving that loading the accumulator actually gives you potential energy.

Funny thing is, the gravitational potential energy applies to accumulators at release.

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

The golfer, ready to swing down, can perhaps be compared to a 100m sprinter ready in the blocks - they both take an optimum start position but are not accumulating any ‘power’. They are not ‘cranking’ up any spring to be unloaded subsequently - they are simply settling into an optimum departure configuration. Energy/power is not generated by the backswing, it is generated mainly in the first part of the downswing and then subsequently transferred into the clubhead.

If you bring the muscles as loaded rubberband mistake into discussion, you should give us a TGM quote. This was after all a Hogan - not Homer - notion. And it look a lot like a straw man.


Vaako

 

[geoffb]

quote:The golfer, ready to swing down, can perhaps be compared to a 100m sprinter ready in the blocks - they both take an optimum start position but are not accumulating any ‘power’. They are not ‘cranking’ up any spring to be unloaded subsequently - they are simply settling into an optimum departure configuration. Energy/power is not generated by the backswing, it is generated mainly in the first part of the downswing and then subsequently transferred into the clubhead.

Thanks for bringing up a perfect example of a hitter’s muscle power accumulator.

In the same way that the golfer can use right arm thrust, a sprinter will place their legs in a bent condition so they can use leg thrust to propel themselves off the starting blocks.

quote:To make a long story short - creating angles (out of line conditions) between linked segments does not equal accumulating potential energy.

You are right it is not a spring but if you are trying to make it fit in with the scientific definition of potential energy, that's not what you are supposed to be doing!

Bending my leg will give me the potential to use the power that I know my leg muscles can generate from that bent condition.

I don't know what you are arguing about mandrin, you are a smart guy, you know the meaning of these things, but you seem to be arguing about the difference between the scientific meaning of these words and how they are defined in TGM...