Accumulator #3

[David Alford]

One other thing, for two and only two swing models, it is essential the left arm be in contact with the chest during the takeaway. Therefore, it can be a power accumulator of sorts in this sense. But not during the downswing (for a full swing).

 

[David Alford]

Sorry, make that three swing models...although the third one is a variant of one the two others.

 

[MizunoJoe]

"MJ....
Just curious...but didnt Tong say basically what I did? Just curious as to why his explanation is valid, while mine didnt seem to be...."

I wasn't aware that the use of #3 in Hitting is called "Driveout Action" rather than "Throwout Action". I thought you meant that #3 Accum wasn't used in Hitting, because I have always associated #3 with Throwout.

 

[David Alford]

6bee, I see your point now re: # 4. I'm relieved if HK never said the left arm is blasted off the chest, so HK would not be in error. This specific statement (left arm blasting off the chest) has been mentioned before in the forum and obviously is inaccurate.

Left arm angle is quite different. However, I'm sure you'll agree it can be release by other means than "by the force of the right shoulder blasting down out and through impact".

E.g., the left arm, or the left trapezius can simply pull the left arm down, diminishing the angle. Or a force as weak as gravity could do it.

 

[MizunoJoe]

"I'm relieved if HK never said the left arm is blasted off the chest, so HK would not be in error. This specific statement (left arm blasting off the chest) has been mentioned before in the forum and obviously is inaccurate."

HK said, "Inertia can hold the Left Arm against the chest while the Body Turn is accelerating it and Momentum can then sustain it and come out with the Feel of Left Arm Power. To clear the fog, consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting a Swinger's essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact."

 

[6bee1dee]

The phrase “blast off” comes from tapes of Homer as he taught his Master Classes.
As Lynn Blake quotes: “In the Start Down and Down Stroke, the Right Shoulder Turn Thrust, ‘cranks the Gyroscope’ by ‘blasting’ the Left Arm off the chest.” Homers instructions to the letter.

The angle is not the angle of the left arm across the chest but the angle the left arm and shoulder.

The right shoulder thrust action is the force used in driving the left arm. The left arm doesn’t
move itself outward, either. It keeps the angle it established at address. It moves with the pivot and the driving right shoulder.

quote:

David wrote:
I do wonder why his errors aren't clearly admitted - such as his idea the left arm could be blasted off the chest on the downswing. That's simply silly, as it isn't in contact at least during a full swing.

What errors? If you, independently as you say, made the same discoveries that Homer Kelly - what are your errors?

You tell us you are equals with the knowledge of Homer Kelly and the ball striking of Ben Hogan. Geeusvuc are we blessed to have you instruct us. Please write a book or something and get it down. We would love to buy it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

But It could move itself, Mike, and it does—very often.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

But It could move itself, Mike, and it does—very often.

I am not saying it doesn't move in the rhythm of the stroke- that is what acc#4 is- Rhythm.
But the initial start down is driven by the pivot and the right shoulder thrust. Pulling from the arm does not move the arm off the angle formed by acc#4 or spends PP#4.

 

[6bee1dee]

Bono, I think yours just got lost in the meele.

I just like to think of Acc3 as the roll that allows the karate chop of Acc2 to put the clubface on the ball instead of the clubhead sole.

Call me we need to talk about NC.

 

[David Alford]

6bee, I never said the specific comments re: HK and BH that you attribute to me. So please don't say I did.
I'd like to address the angst toward me in the audio interview. Perhaps you will find it interesting. Or perhaps not.

Now, regarding these comments about HK & the left arm/chest, "ah ha". I was hoping he didn't say these types of things. It is simply wrong
or imprecise at the mininimum to talk about the left arm blasing off from the chest. It's not on the chest during the downswing.
If, instead, he meant arm angle...then say it. I hope he defined precisely what that angle involves, whether shoulder and arm or chest...so the student doesn't have to guess.

Innocent students could take the idea of a left arm blasting off from the chest literally and try to hold the left arm or get the left arm in contact with the chest in the downswing so it can "be blasted off".
.
Now, that will screw them up, because in a full swing the left arm should NOT be in contact with the left chest. So here you have an undesirable result because HK made an error. Or wrote imprecisely. One or the olther. Or both.

I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but from the above quotes, it looks like the orginal complaint was accurate.

Why do I have to be the fellow who points this out? Why do so many lack courage to call the emperor on it? I've made mistakes in my posts over the years...I want to know about it. If they're in my book, I think I'll offer a $$$ reward to anyone who can find any. So they can be corrected!

I suspect HK and I would have gotten along fabulously, in person. My critics here should just accept, I have a low tolerance for instructions
that don't make sense, are hard to understand, and worse, contain omissions or errors. I'm not alone in this...! It's nothing personal with HK.
I find a lot that is admirable in his goals, some or all of which which I probably share.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford
Regarding #4, "folding and unfolding the left arm" just seems so inept a description, if in fact, it doesn't fold or unfold. To me, it implied a power source per Jack Kurkendal's (sp) theory of a bent left arm as an additional potential power lever.

David,

I plead guilty to using an inept description. I certainly didn't intend to create any image that included the left arm bending or straightening prior to impact, but I can see that it did.

 

[David Alford]

Thanx for that. No worries...let's leave that to Jack K.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Now, that will screw them up, because in a full swing the left arm should NOT be in contact with the left chest. So here you have an undesirable result because HK made an error. Or wrote imprecisely. One or the olther. Or both.

I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but from the above quotes, it looks like the orginal complaint was accurate.

Why do I have to be the fellow who points this out? Why do so many lack courage to call the emperor on it? I've made mistakes in my posts over the years...I want to know about it. If they're in my book, I think I'll offer a $$$ reward to anyone who can find any. So they can be corrected!

I suspect HK and I would have gotten along fabulously, in person. My critics here should just accept, I have a low tolerance for instructions
that don't make sense, are hard to understand, and worse, contain omissions or errors. I'm not alone in this...! It's nothing personal with HK.
I find a lot that is admirable in his goals, some or all of which which I probably share.

And your left arm on the take-away goes where? Straight up? Across the chest? Where?

David- for years you have moaned and never once gave us a hint to of your self-proclaim superior knowledge.

Yes- you say you know more than Kelley and hit the ball better than Hogan.

 

[shootin4par]

I have a question. Ben doyle was the first certified tgm instructor, was he taught by kelley himself?

 

[David Alford]

6bee, I'll repeat I never made those statements. I said I know Hogan's swing and can demonstrate the model very well.

I did not say I know more than HK. Please stop attributing to me what you think I said. I said so far I haven't learned anything new from what I've read about TGM. I've also said, since I purposedly avoided reading TGM, I don't really know it that well - so maybe there will be something new for me there.

Keep in mind, I also have spent a quarter of a century reseaching the golf swing, and perhaps hit a lot more balls than HK ever did. At some point you will be free to compare my swing(s) to his or anyone elses' for that matter.

You've seen his swing sequence on Lynn's site, right? Need we pursue this? You are painting me in the corner of being his antagonist, and I'm really not. As I stated above, I truly believe HK and I would have gotten along extremely well.

I've tried to contribute here to a degree. Yes, I do tend to be a bit tight lipped. Recently, I gave my specific thoughts about Hogan's right knee. In the current topic, I'm pointing out my thoughts regarding the left arm.

To answer your most recent question, where the left arm goes on the take-away depends entirely on the swing model. In a few swing models, it stays tight to the chest during the takeaway. In many, it is not in a tight association. In others, such as Trevino's it moves away.

However, the topic was the left arm on the downswing, not the take-away. Correct?

I previously said it should not, on a full swing, be in close contact with the chest during the downswing. It's an erroneous concept and could certainly lead one astray if taken literally.

It's much easier for all concerned, to write clearly and accurately, not so understanding is difficult, but rather so misunderstanding is.

 

[MizunoJoe]

"I previously said it should not, on a full swing, be in close contact with the chest during the downswing. It's an erroneous concept and could certainly lead one astray if taken literally."

Here's that "erroneous concept" in action. It lead him "astray" to three green jackets and a US Open title.

http://www.golfswing.com/proswings/player.htm

 

[David Alford]

Are you serious? I didn't say the left arm detaches from the socket!

But, if you want to keep the left arm in CONTACT with the chest, just bring it close to rt. pocket on the downswing so your left elbow stays in contact. Let us know if you can find your ball.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by shootin4par

I have a question. Ben doyle was the first certified tgm instructor, was he taught by kelley himself?

Yes.

 

[shootin4par]

Thanks RWH and I guess that settles the confusion.

Acummalator number three is ROTATION OF LEFT FOREARM> No ties, geek!!! So why no ties, well play connect the dots. Homer Wrote the book and Doyle was taught by HOMER HIMSELF, Bman was taught by Doyle and with only two links in a chain there is not much room for recnfiguration.

 

[Bono]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Oh, I've never said I know TGM. In fact, I've openly stated I haven't been influenced by it at all. So when my stuff comes out, I hope no one will say, "he learned that from TGM".

I PURPOSEDLY AVOIDED TGM because I wanted to figure everything out myself. At this point, with my research essentially over, I'm willing to see what HK knew. I do have his book somewhere and agree I should read it. I did read it a long time ago, maybe 15 yrs?, and saw that HK and I were covering the same ground. I shut the book and put it away because I really wanted my own voyage and challenges. Somewhat contradictory, I didn't mind reading magazine articles and/or forum comments, theories, etc. posted by others.

I do wonder why his errors aren't clearly admitted - such as his idea the left arm could be blasted off the chest on the downswing. That's simply silly, as it isn't in contact at least during a full swing.

Do you agree that the left arm is generally and usually inert?

Also...what errors? Love to hear your comments.

Thanks!

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

"MJ....
Just curious...but didnt Tong say basically what I did? Just curious as to why his explanation is valid, while mine didnt seem to be...."

I wasn't aware that the use of #3 in Hitting is called "Driveout Action" rather than "Throwout Action". I thought you meant that #3 Accum wasn't used in Hitting, because I have always associated #3 with Throwout.

MJ...
Sorry if my last post seemed to be 'I know more then you' - that wasnt my intention (I just reread it and it could be interpeted that way).

The term throwout (more correctly termed centrifugal throwout) is associate with centrifugal force - not necessarily accumulator #3. The term drive out does not imply use of accumulator #3, but rather - right arm thrust (not accumulator #3). Just want to make sure this is cleared up - I know for me, a little misconception can throw me way way off!!!

-Phillygolf

quote:Originally posted by shootin4par

Thanks RWH and I guess that settles the confusion.

Acummalator number three is ROTATION OF LEFT FOREARM> No ties, geek!!! So why no ties, well play connect the dots. Homer Wrote the book and Doyle was taught by HOMER HIMSELF, Bman was taught by Doyle and with only two links in a chain there is not much room for recnfiguration.

The books says differently. More accumulator #3, more rotation needed. Not to take liberties - and surely I am not questioning Brians knowledge - but I think he'll clear it up.

Bottom line, accumulator #3 is the angle. No if's, and's or BUTT's....lol