Breaking through my scoring comfort zone

[rsully]

Here’s my question: After 20 years of layoff, I started to play golf regularly this past year. I have most of Brian's DVD's and have worked regularly on my swing at the driving range. I have applied to the best of my ability Brian's sage advice. While my ball striking is now overall pretty solid, my scores have leveled off and I am not scoring the way I feel should be.

If have a poor front 9, I seem to pick it up stongly on the back. If I have a great front 9, I tend to falter on the back. The last round I played, my usually my dependable putting left me with a number of 3 puts and pushed my score right back into the same place. Some days it is my driver, other days the approaches that are not totally up to par. (pun intended) What gives?

I think I have fallen into some type of mid-to-high 80’s scoring comfort zone, and I want to break out!

Suggestions?

Thanks,

Ron

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Mental game

This relates to the mental side of golf that so many love to talk about. I had many conversations with my friend Tommy Moore about the subject.

Does having confidence improve your golf game or does an improved golf game raise your confidence?

He and I both believed the latter. Take a hundred shooter and don't let him hit a ball for a year and just convince him he is the greatest. Wanna bet what he shoots when he starts playing again. Don't confuse this with psychocybernatics, mentally practicing a better swing. Now take that same 100 shooter and let him work with Brian for a year without playing. I know who I'm betting on.

So as far as getting past a scoring comfort zone...improve your golfing abilities and your "comfort zone" will improve.

After all, wasn't your comfort zone at one time in the 100's, 90's, etc

To borrow an old saying, the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

You don't know what you're talking about Tom. That analogy is illogical and irrelevant.

The concept of "convincing someone they're the greatest" is quackery. Bob Rotella doesn't know what he's talking about either really.

 

[garymag]

Misread?

Chris:

I believe that you misread Tom's post. I got from his post that confidence comes from striking the ball well, not the other way around.

 

[jenhaoyen]

yeah...no matter what i do i'm always in the 83-86 zone. LOL

I actually know somebody that thin the ball everytime..and not hitting the ball solid but he's able to shoot around 78.
I feel like I wouldn't be too happy even if I shoot 78, I want to be able to hit the ball solid everytime...that will make my day

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Chris:

I believe that you misread Tom's post. I got from his post that confidence comes from striking the ball well, not the other way around.

Yes, I understand that, I did not misread it. What I am saying is that the fact that he thinks "convincing someone they're the greatest" is "the mental game" shows that he is a novice on the subject. With that said there are a bunch of people out there who are supposed to be mental game gurus or whatever and they think the same thing, they are quacks.

Tom's belief that confidence comes from striking the ball well is not really true and shows he doesn't know what he's talking about. If it were true then people (whatever their skill level may be) would have no problem playing just as well on the course as they do on the range. Or just as well in a tournament as in practice. Generally, people play worse. But according to Tom's illogical belief they should play just as well because they've hit plenty of shots at that level on the range or in practice so they should have confidence...he and Tommy Moore (whoever that is) are obviously wrong about that.

And the word confidence itself is very ambiguous and overrated.

 

[Notorious B.E.N.]

Then why do you think Earl Woods make Tiger dominate at every level of competitive golf before he could move up? It gave Tiger tons of confidence and that way it did not take him very long to start winning on the pga tour, unlike much rookies today.He was used to being number 1. It was natural. Notice how for some players it takes them a while to start winning on the pga tour such as Padraig. He was able to do that all along but it took him a while to realize it. Plus he works with Rotella. I'm either going to get praised or bashed over this comment but i think it is what Earl Woods intended.

 

[holeout]

Tom is partially correct, like Chris says. Obviously to score better your skill set has to improve. But that's not what we're looking for here. What we'd like to figure out is how to score to the best of your abilities when you're out on the course.

Whether they want to admit it or not, some people have a mental "block" on shooting good scores. It's not that they lack the skills to shoot 78, 88, 98; they lack the mind to do it. If you've ever had more than $20 riding on the last hole or last putt of a round, you know that your level of skill in striking a golf ball or putting is only half of the equation when it comes to executing a shot. Same goes for scoring barriers.

In my opinion, at the end of the day you largely have to figure out the mental side of the game by yourself. You can't have someone tell you what to do and then be successful. Does that mean all of the information out there is garbage? Of course not. But don't read Rotella, Valiante, etc. without knowing that their suggestions aren't necessarily going to work for you. Experience is the best teacher, and experimenting with what works and doesn't when it comes to routine, thought processes, decision making, etc. is the only way you're going to improve.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

You don't know what you're talking about Tom.

I love having a conversation with this type of person. "You're wrong, I'm right, because I know."

And BTW, who are you? Do you think I did something to you in a past life? Why the attack on me when I am helping someone who asked a question?

that the fact that he thinks "convincing someone they're the greatest" is "the mental game" shows that he is a novice on the subject..

Never said that. I was answering his post about his "comfort zone" which by most people is believed to be a "mental thing". My point was, it isn't. It is a direct result of ability and not something that can be improved by anything other than learning to make the ball do what you want.

Tom's belief that confidence comes from striking the ball well is not really true and shows he doesn't know what he's talking about..

Yes, it is true. If you know you are going to hit an 8 iron 95% of the time 160 yds and in the direction you want with the shape you want, you have confidence.

If it were true then people (whatever their skill level may be) would have no problem playing just as well on the course as they do on the range. Or just as well in a tournament as in practice.

I've heard that one a few times before. "I hit it great on the range but then go to the course and it's not the same". BS! I have played with more of these people than you will ever play with the rest of your life.

Just cause I know you are going to ask. I played professionally for 15 years, and a world of junior and amateur tournaments before that. I have played in more Pro-ams than you can shake a stick at (I've seen it all) Oh, not to mention, been teaching for quite some time too.

They hit it the same on the course as on the range.

But, I also notice that on the range no one is Aiming. No one is practicing playing. They just whack balls. The ball goes exactly where their club is telling it to go but not necessarily where they think it's going...hence, "I don't hit it the same on the course as I do on the range".

In other words people who make that claim don't know what they are really doing when they hit a ball.

As far as Tournaments, that's a whole other animal. Like Ben Hogan said, "Playing golf and tournament golf are about as much alike as tennis and ice hockey". I could go on about tournament golf for days...oh, but I forgot, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Generally, people play worse. But according to Tom's illogical belief they should play just as well because they've hit plenty of shots at that level on the range or in practice so they should have confidence.

Again, see above post.

I'll watch guys hit great drivers on the range (pretty little draw) and they are aimed no where near where they think they are aiming ( I discover this later). They go on the course and hit the EXACT same drive into a water hazard because they have no idea where they are aiming in relation to their swing. Aha! I fix them and they thank me a thousand times. If I or someone else is not there to fix them...they just don't understand how come they can't repeat what they did on the range. Then they start trying other stuff, or their buddy tries to help and it starts spiraling down quickly.

A. If you are standing in a fairway with an 8 iron and you know that you can make the ball do what you want, that is confidence.

B. Standing in the fairway with an 8 iron and not knowing if it will cut or hook or even if you will hit it solid, no confidence. And, Nothing...Nothing,. will make that better until you can control the club.

This was my point to the original poster and his "comfort zone"

To improve scoring improve ball striking, pitching, chipping, putting. If you improve those you improve scores.

and Tommy Moore (whoever that is) are obviously wrong about that.

Tommy Moore; Great friend of mine, Brian and Mike. Past away from a rare blood disease back in 1998 . He was the number one ranked junior in the world. He won almost every major junior event. Played for Oklahoma State with Verplank, Tway etc. They called him Doc, because he had all the answers. He played on every mini tour at the time. He played and won on the nationwide tour. He won the PGA Tour Q-school. He played on tour for several years. He worked with every golf instructor you can name and then some. He worked with all of the sports psychologists too.

His passion was golf. I saw him shortly before he died and his last words to me were... It (golf) really doesn't matter, there are a lot more things more important.


Moral - no good deed goes unpunished.

Synopsis - I try to help a forum member understand that the only way to improve his golf scores (other than cheating) is to improve knowledge and skill and for that someone attacks me.

 

[curtisj76]

Owned!

 

[holeout]

Synopsis - I try to help a forum member understand that the only way to improve his golf scores (other than cheating) is to improve knowledge and skill and for that someone attacks me.

Don't be discouraged by Chris! If discourage is the right word to use; angered may be more appropriate?

I get what you're saying Tom. And you are largely correct; competence = confidence. But in certain cases, your ability to deal with pressure can definitely affect your ability to execute shots you're fully capable of.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

I love having a conversation with this type of person. "You're wrong, I'm right, because I know."

Do you really not realize that's exactly how Brian acts on here?

I backed up what I said, your thoughts on the mental game don't really make sense and are mostly missing the point.

And BTW, who are you? Do you think I did something to you in a past life? Why the attack on me when I am helping someone who asked a question?

How is it "an attack"? I simply stated that you are wrong and don't know what your talking about. Would you like me to sugar coat it for you somehow? Or maybe pretend I agree with you?

Never said that. I was answering his post about his "comfort zone" which by most people is believed to be a "mental thing". My point was, it isn't. It is a direct result of ability and not something that can be improved by anything other than learning to make the ball do what you want.

How could a comfort zone possibly be anything other than a mental thing? You think it's a golf swing knowledge thing? Really? Ok, well then by your logic whoever has the most golf swing knowledge is the best player (people are not that different physically). So Brian and you must have much less golf swing knowledge than Jeff Sluman or Corey Pavin because those guys are easily better players than you two are. They certainly aren't more physically talented than you guys are, and according to you mental game is of no value, so they must just have tons more golf swing knowledge since that's the only way they could each win a major and millions on tour over 20 year careers right?

I've heard that one a few times before. "I hit it great on the range but then go to the course and it's not the same". BS! I have played with more of these people than you will ever play with the rest of your life.

Just cause I know you are going to ask. I played professionally for 15 years, and a world of junior and amateur tournaments before that. I have played in more Pro-ams than you can shake a stick at (I've seen it all) Oh, not to mention, been teaching for quite some time too.

They hit it the same on the course as on the range.

But, I also notice that on the range no one is Aiming. No one is practicing playing. They just whack balls. The ball goes exactly where their club is telling it to go but not necessarily where they think it's going...hence, "I don't hit it the same on the course as I do on the range".

In other words people who make that claim don't know what they are really doing when they hit a ball.

I agree that some people don't know how to aim or pick a target, but there is more to it than that. People who pick targets on the range and know how to aim still often play worse on the course and even worse on the course during a tournament and it's all for the same reason. Because it matters more.

As far as Tournaments, that's a whole other animal. Like Ben Hogan said, "Playing golf and tournament golf are about as much alike as tennis and ice hockey". I could go on about tournament golf for days...oh, but I forgot, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, Ben Hogan knows what I'm talking about and you don't. Nice cop out in the last sentance there, it's obvious you don't actually understand the matter and are avoiding it. Go on about tournament golf then, not long winded stories, but according to you it should be no different than regular golf since you still have the same knowledge of the golf swing. Why do you think Ben Hogan says that? From everything you've said people should have zero problems playing up to their level in tournaments. It's definitely not their aiming that's the problem then.

Tommy Moore; Great friend of mine, Brian and Mike. Past away from a rare blood disease back in 1998 . He was the number one ranked junior in the world. He won almost every major junior event. Played for Oklahoma State with Verplank, Tway etc. They called him Doc, because he had all the answers. He played on every mini tour at the time. He played and won on the nationwide tour. He won the PGA Tour Q-school. He played on tour for several years. He worked with every golf instructor you can name and then some. He worked with all of the sports psychologists too.

His passion was golf. I saw him shortly before he died and his last words to me were... It (golf) really doesn't matter, there are a lot more things more important.

Sounds like a great guy. But he's still either wrong about the mental game or was just trying to be agreeable so you wouldn't get upset.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Fool me once...

Just dawned on me what's going on here and I'm not going to get sucked into it again.

A forum member asked me a question and I answered with information that would help him. If he wants to ask more follow up questions I am more than happy to answer because at Brianmanzella.com we try to improve peoples golf games.

Chris, if you feel like you have information that would improve the gentleman's game feel free to give it. But, I seriously doubt that your motives are to help anyone.

Don't bother responding to me because you obviously are not here to improve your "golf" game.

 

[Brian Manzella]

THE TIME HAS COME.

Chris,

I am not saying that I am right all the time, to the contrary, NO TEACHER admits his mistakes more than I.

I am not saying Tom Bartlett is right al the time, nor does he.

But, the time has come for you to identify yourself.

What is your golf background?

Tournament play?

Teaching success?

Occupation?

Something other than: Chris Sturgess—contrarian.

 

[tongzilla]

For me personally, confidence comes from knowing exactly where the ball will go (when I'm playing very well, which to be honest is not very often), or knowing definitely where the ball won't go, e.g. it won't go left (when I'm playing normal). I've tried for years to act/feel/behave confidently when my game sucks -- for me, it doesn't work. "Self confidence" talk to myself doesn't really work for me. Ditto 'visualising that perfect 3 iron you hit that time in...'. I have since replaced those sort of self conversation with, "just try my best and enjoy the game".

 

[nwb]

If i may go back to the original question - breaking through scoring barriers - I actually feel that this is related to technique rather than confidence (for me anyway). I feel as your game progresses you improve your technique and reach a certain level. To get to the next level you have to improve your technique that little bit more.

For me collecting stats is vital for this. If you collect them honestly patterns will show up in your game and give you clues on where you need to work on. Example my bunker play i always thought was good, i could always get out and get reasonably close. However this year's stats have been really poor (under 20%). This made me re-evaluate my technique, improve it and i am back up around 50% now. I feel breaking scoring barriers is just chipping away at technique with the ultimate aim being that your bad shots are playable enough to give you a chance to score.

NWB

 

[Chris Sturgess]

I am not saying Tom Bartlett is right al the time, nor does he.

So do you admit he's wrong on this issue then? He doesn't. Both of you are afraid to address my previous post i.e. the substance of the argument. Why would this be if neither of you are afraid to admit when you're wrong?

Chris,

I am not saying that I am right all the time, to the contrary, NO TEACHER admits his mistakes more than I.

"No teacher" is an overstatement. You admit you're wrong on some things way after the fact but never at the time of the discussion. You never admitted you were wrong when you so clearly were in the discussion we had about shanking where you thought the only way people shank was with an open clubface. You also say everything with great bravado and abrasiveness which are not traits of someone who readily admits when they're wrong.

But, the time has come for you to identify yourself.

What is your golf background?

Tournament play?

Teaching success?

Occupation?

Something other than: Chris Sturgess—contrarian.

I'm not even a contrarian, I agree with you about a lot of things, I just don't agree about everything. To you someone who doesn't agree with everything is a contrarian I guess. Anyway, I work for an investment company, have played in tournaments in the past but not recently. Now I mostly just play for fun and low scores. I've never been a teaching pro but I've given friends instruction that took them from shooting in the 90s to shooting in the high 70s and then they had people they know come to me for lessons so I did that on the side for a little while but frankly it got annoying and time consuming.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

If i may go back to the original question - breaking through scoring barriers - I actually feel that this is related to technique rather than confidence (for me anyway). I feel as your game progresses you improve your technique and reach a certain level. To get to the next level you have to improve your technique that little bit more.

NWB

Obviously technique is a factor. But if someone regularly shoots 42 on the front nine and 50 on the back, or 50 on the front nine and then 42 on the back. There is no technique reason why they can't shoot in the 80s. They just can't handle the pressure of shooting in the 80s (scoring barrier). It's the same reason why another guy plays well in a casual round but not in a tournament. Or a pga player plays well on thursday and friday but not on sunday afternoon. If they could regularly play well on thursday, their technique is obviously not the problem on sunday afternoon. Average Joe's not being able to break through a scoring barrier is just a mini version of the same thing.

 

[dbl]

Technique, imo, hasn't been defined and is being used inconsistently. A person might shoot 60 and then 45, because his swing is inconsistent. He can't always duplicate the good shots, since he isn't in control. So though he may have a shot borne occasionally of good technique he doesn't always know how to bring it out.

Throw in a rotten and inconsistent short game, and those scores will also go up. Again he may know "in theory" how to chip and occasionaly perform it decently, but if he spanks it over the green half the time, then his mistakes getting to the green will be amplified.

A third point, is I have seen people who "have to" play everyday or they lose their technique, and missing a day or two or three can take them out of the 80's into the 100's. In many cases, these people time the flip, and so their confidence is, imo, never really high because they know on the inside their 80's can go away.

In the cases I mention above, there is potential for the golfer, but he has no mental thing holding him back.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Nice exchange. We all learn a lot here.

I wish you would post more Tom....but I understand why you don't. Finney doesn't post at all anymore, and Brian's posts have dropped a lot, for understandable reasons. Anyway, thanks for the insight.