Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
rundmc said:
Leg's my arse!
My buddy (the same one i talked about before) who on a good day can CARRY the ball 285-290 couldn't even SQUAT 100LBS!
Brian, how do i swing faster?
- Thread starter Jim Kobylinski
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Leg's my arse!
My buddy (the same one i talked about before) who on a good day can CARRY the ball 285-290 couldn't even SQUAT 100LBS!
SundayHacker
New
I attended my first PGA event last week (first round of the US Open) and one thing I noted was how strong these guys looked in the forearms and hands. Even the out of shape guys looked like they would have no problem strangling the crap out of someone.
...but oddly enough, I have decent forearms but my hands and wrists are small (not exactly weak though), and one thing I can do is swing the club pretty darn fast. I pretty much max out that Speed Stik thing. I do believe however that if I were stronger in the lower arms, it would help me turn the club over more easily and more often. I feel like I hang on to compensate for something.
...but oddly enough, I have decent forearms but my hands and wrists are small (not exactly weak though), and one thing I can do is swing the club pretty darn fast. I pretty much max out that Speed Stik thing. I do believe however that if I were stronger in the lower arms, it would help me turn the club over more easily and more often. I feel like I hang on to compensate for something.
forgedbladesgolf
New
I have been using a few fitness regimens which have been helping with core strength and swing speed. First, I have been boxing for 6 months and have seen tremendous results with pounding the heavy bag. This has helped me in all aspects of my swing. I believe nothing teaches the body better how to move explosively as well as maintain balance at the same time. Lifting weights is great but the body has to learn to stabilize itself, and nothing compares to incorporating a dynamic move like hitting a heavy bag.
The second regimen I employ is the speedchain. www.trainchain.com
It is a chain attached to a shaft that has progressively heavier links toward the end of the chain. This device produces dynamic resistance which cannot be taught by lifting weights. My chain weighs about 15-20 lbs and I do 4-6 sets with 5 reps every other day. The goal is to move the chain as fast and explosivle as possible. I can honestly say this thing will completely wipe you out after a few sets.
I hope I have given you some ideas which are truly worthwhile in your quest for more speed. I think the benefit is that not only are you going to produce more speed but create a more stable platform to support a faster moving golf swing!
The second regimen I employ is the speedchain. www.trainchain.com
It is a chain attached to a shaft that has progressively heavier links toward the end of the chain. This device produces dynamic resistance which cannot be taught by lifting weights. My chain weighs about 15-20 lbs and I do 4-6 sets with 5 reps every other day. The goal is to move the chain as fast and explosivle as possible. I can honestly say this thing will completely wipe you out after a few sets.
I hope I have given you some ideas which are truly worthwhile in your quest for more speed. I think the benefit is that not only are you going to produce more speed but create a more stable platform to support a faster moving golf swing!
birdie_man
New
I dunno that the forearms really don't have much to do with it IMO.
I think core/torso strength (i.e. rotation speed) and strong legs are most important.
I'm about 5'9-5'10 155-160...pretty athletic and can hit it pretty above average distance. 300 yrd. drives quite a bit type-deal.
...
What do yall think the legs do BTW?
A few ideas:
-stable base supporting (and reacting to) the swing above them?
-power source?....driving with the legs, etc.
...
And what moves the hips in the downswing? i.e. the hip slide move (causing Axis Tilt) we talk about so much.
...
How much does athletecism and agility weigh in?
BTW flexability obviously helps to a degree but there's lots of guys who can rip it with shortish swings.....90 degree shoulder turn or close to is good enough....and most ppl can do that I think (90 or close to it).
I think core/torso strength (i.e. rotation speed) and strong legs are most important.
I'm about 5'9-5'10 155-160...pretty athletic and can hit it pretty above average distance. 300 yrd. drives quite a bit type-deal.
...
What do yall think the legs do BTW?
A few ideas:
-stable base supporting (and reacting to) the swing above them?
-power source?....driving with the legs, etc.
...
And what moves the hips in the downswing? i.e. the hip slide move (causing Axis Tilt) we talk about so much.
...
How much does athletecism and agility weigh in?
BTW flexability obviously helps to a degree but there's lots of guys who can rip it with shortish swings.....90 degree shoulder turn or close to is good enough....and most ppl can do that I think (90 or close to it).
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tongzilla
New
BEWARE: speed chain devices, swinging with weighted clubs, etc.
For an exercise to be useful as a conditioning tool for a sport, it must utilise the same muscles and the same type of neurological activation pattern as that sport,. It need not be an identical copy of the sport movement. In fact, it has been demonstrated that if the motor pathway of the slower conditioning exercise is too similar to that of the faster sport skill, as in swinging a weighted club, interference with correct skill execution can result! The more similarity between the two techniques, the greater chance of motor pathway confusion, and the more difficulty a trainee will have in keeping them separate. The more divergent the motor pathways become, the less likely they are to overlap and interfere. So swinging a weighted club versus hitting a ball with a real golf club have similar motor pathways, hence greater likelihood of interference.
I make myself sound cleverer than I really am by using all these scientific terms, but the bottom line (for me) is simple: it is not worth gaining a few extra MPH of clubhead speed at the expense of ruining the finesse in my golf swing.
For an exercise to be useful as a conditioning tool for a sport, it must utilise the same muscles and the same type of neurological activation pattern as that sport,. It need not be an identical copy of the sport movement. In fact, it has been demonstrated that if the motor pathway of the slower conditioning exercise is too similar to that of the faster sport skill, as in swinging a weighted club, interference with correct skill execution can result! The more similarity between the two techniques, the greater chance of motor pathway confusion, and the more difficulty a trainee will have in keeping them separate. The more divergent the motor pathways become, the less likely they are to overlap and interfere. So swinging a weighted club versus hitting a ball with a real golf club have similar motor pathways, hence greater likelihood of interference.
I make myself sound cleverer than I really am by using all these scientific terms, but the bottom line (for me) is simple: it is not worth gaining a few extra MPH of clubhead speed at the expense of ruining the finesse in my golf swing.
birdie_man
New
Ya to me it just feels incredibly weird and unatural swinging a golf club RIGHT after swinging a weighted club...
I dunno tho....does it matter if you only swing your weighted club when ur not playing?
I dunno tho....does it matter if you only swing your weighted club when ur not playing?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
wanole said:
I figured this would happen eventually.....let's sit down for some basic math. First here's a pretty good chart that i would say is slightly outdated for today's optimal launch conditions:
Also, here are some pretty good formulas that are fairly consistent from my launch monitor experiences both using and for fittings:
Ballspeed X 0.69= Swingspeed
(Ballspeed X 0.69) X 2.5 = Approx Carry Distance
Swingspeed X 2.5 = Approx Carry Distance
Ballspeed X 1.725 = Approx Carry Distance
Ballspeed/Swingspeed=Smash Factor
Some people feel that 2.40-2.50 is a good number, 2.5 is the "max efficiency." Same goes for 1.725, a bit high sometimes.
--------------
So let's do some math:
110mph swing speed x 2.5 = 275 yard carry which is not ideal in the real world. So let's get it a little "less efficient for real world sake:
110mph swing speed x 2.42 (3.2% less efficient) = 266.2 yards of carry ~ 266 yards.
266 yards of carry + 10-12 yards of roll = 276-278 total drive.
Let's try 112 swing speed:
112mph swing speed x 2.5 = 280 yard carry which is not ideal in the real world. So let's get it a little "less efficient for real world sake:
112mph swing speed x 2.42 (3.2% less efficient) = 271.04 yards of carry ~ 271 yards.
271 yards of carry + 10-12 yards of roll = 281-283 total drive.
-----------------------
Now math is all good but what about real world experience? Most of my drives are GPS measured via a golf cart. I can easily carry 265 yard objects and i don't swing 110-112 ALL the time.
In my Vector experience with a solid 107-108mph swing speed with an efficient strike and proper launch condidtions you can carry a ball roughl 265-268 yards and it should roll out roughly 12-15 yards unless your fairway is REALLLY wet.
So for me to swing at 110-112 and not always hitting the center of the face, a normal drive 275-280 isn't a big deal with very EFFICIENT drives being in the 290 yard range and once in a while i can turn up the speed in the 115mph range and hit the ball 300 yards about once a round.
Ask Tom Bartlett, i was the only one in Orlando that even came remotely close to catching up to ANY of his drives. we were on a 576 yard par 5 and i hit a cart measured 302 yard drive that left me 273 yards to the hole. Tom hit one 322 yards.
You'd be surprised how much proper ball compression and launch conditions can do to your drive. That's what the cleveland Hi-bore is all about, very high launchs (16-17* and 2200-2400rpm of spin) with very low spin to increase carries. However you can't really achieve great drives like this unless you swing at least in the 105mph range.
Professor Jim
johngolf33
New
Dear Jim,
Does that mean you endorse the Hi-Bore? Do they tend to launch a little higher or lower than let's say a normal Cleveland Launcher?
Does that mean you endorse the Hi-Bore? Do they tend to launch a little higher or lower than let's say a normal Cleveland Launcher?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
I haven't had enough time to really test a hibore to say, however i will say that it's a very STRAIGHT hitting golf club that is very unique and very PICK TO TO FIT.
You have to tee it low, you have to hit it dead center of the face, you have to get the right shaft and you have to break out of your comfort box when you see the ball flight.
Because the ball flight with this club is very high, but flat because of the low spin. Too many of us equate the initial launch of this club with a "ballooner" and it's hard to adjust.
It's too expensive for my taste @ $400, i currently use the Cleveland Comp and love it. I am currently having the guy who does my clubs get me a component version of the Hibore to test as it is basically the same damn thing but costs nothing lol.
You have to tee it low, you have to hit it dead center of the face, you have to get the right shaft and you have to break out of your comfort box when you see the ball flight.
Because the ball flight with this club is very high, but flat because of the low spin. Too many of us equate the initial launch of this club with a "ballooner" and it's hard to adjust.
It's too expensive for my taste @ $400, i currently use the Cleveland Comp and love it. I am currently having the guy who does my clubs get me a component version of the Hibore to test as it is basically the same damn thing but costs nothing lol.
jpvegas1
New
Swing Speed
Birdie_Man:
From my understanding of biomechanics, you are correct in your assertion that body rotation speed is related to clubhead speed. Years ago, when I did my Master's work in biomechanics we looked at factors influencing how fast a pitcher could throw. After looking at various factors, strength, flexibility, height and weight, etc... Our conclusion was that rotation speed of the opposite hip after the foot was planted had the greatest influence on ball velocity. i.e. The faster the pitcher was able to rotate (or open) his hip the greater the velocity of the throw. Although there is not a direct correlation with swinging a golf club there are more similarities than differences.
Lastly, there is the concept of specificity of exercise and movement. The golf swing is a very complex, precise and specific motion and swinging a heavy club to increase swing speed is counterproductive. If you swing a heavier club, different muscle activity is needed to lift the heavy club and swing it when compared to a regular golf club and there is very little carry over. You would become more efficient at swinging a heavier club but would not increase your golf skill with your regular clubs.
Birdie_Man:
From my understanding of biomechanics, you are correct in your assertion that body rotation speed is related to clubhead speed. Years ago, when I did my Master's work in biomechanics we looked at factors influencing how fast a pitcher could throw. After looking at various factors, strength, flexibility, height and weight, etc... Our conclusion was that rotation speed of the opposite hip after the foot was planted had the greatest influence on ball velocity. i.e. The faster the pitcher was able to rotate (or open) his hip the greater the velocity of the throw. Although there is not a direct correlation with swinging a golf club there are more similarities than differences.
Lastly, there is the concept of specificity of exercise and movement. The golf swing is a very complex, precise and specific motion and swinging a heavy club to increase swing speed is counterproductive. If you swing a heavier club, different muscle activity is needed to lift the heavy club and swing it when compared to a regular golf club and there is very little carry over. You would become more efficient at swinging a heavier club but would not increase your golf skill with your regular clubs.
mrodock
New
jpvegas,
So swinging a lighter club to train your neuromuscular system to get used to swinging faster could be useful? I'm thinking about 10-20% lighter.
birdie_man, others,
Please understand when I am talking about hand and forearm strength being important to maxing out your clubhead speed I am saying this factor allows you to swing as fast as your legs, arms, and torso can move. I think BigWill explained it very well on the first page I believe. If your body is capable of swinging 125 mph, but your hand and wrist strength can only support 110 mph, you will swing 110 mph because losing control of the grip is not something the brain will allow in order to gain some mph's.
Matt
So swinging a lighter club to train your neuromuscular system to get used to swinging faster could be useful? I'm thinking about 10-20% lighter.
birdie_man, others,
Please understand when I am talking about hand and forearm strength being important to maxing out your clubhead speed I am saying this factor allows you to swing as fast as your legs, arms, and torso can move. I think BigWill explained it very well on the first page I believe. If your body is capable of swinging 125 mph, but your hand and wrist strength can only support 110 mph, you will swing 110 mph because losing control of the grip is not something the brain will allow in order to gain some mph's.
Matt
Millrat
New
Befriend the chains!
I agree with alot of what you say here, mostly with the part about slower conditioning i.e. weighted clubs. Train-slow=swing slow Motor pathways and stuff? Not sure I agree.
Personally I love swinging the chains. They provide a great workout allowing you to be as explosive as you want without worrying about a clubhead to stop after the follow through. Gained me 10mph so far too.
CW
tongzilla said:
I agree with alot of what you say here, mostly with the part about slower conditioning i.e. weighted clubs. Train-slow=swing slow
Motor pathways and stuff? Not sure I agree.Personally I love swinging the chains. They provide a great workout allowing you to be as explosive as you want without worrying about a clubhead to stop after the follow through. Gained me 10mph so far too.
CW
Making your chain
The Chain can be made. The problem you will find out is chain is just not cheap unless you can get it free from someone. I got a quote from home depot and it was more than what they sell it for. You can I believe get a discount for the product if your a gea forum member. I hope this is not violating Brians memo regarding product sales. I am in no way way promoting this. I just read about and passed the information on. If you happen to read this Brian please let me know if this is violating your policy.
Dave
The Chain can be made. The problem you will find out is chain is just not cheap unless you can get it free from someone. I got a quote from home depot and it was more than what they sell it for. You can I believe get a discount for the product if your a gea forum member. I hope this is not violating Brians memo regarding product sales. I am in no way way promoting this. I just read about and passed the information on. If you happen to read this Brian please let me know if this is violating your policy.
Dave
curtisj76 said:
jpvegas1
New
Swing Speed
I'm not sure that swinging a lighter club faster would necessarily translate into a faster swing with your regular clubs. I am not an expert in this field, but from my understanding of specificity of exercise that the pattern you groove is very specific and limited carry over. Thus if you groove a pattern for swinging a lighter club the speed gained may not carry over to swinging a regular club. As an example of specificity, when I was in high school our baseball coach had all the pitchers throwing weighted baseballs. The thought was when they went back to regular baseball they would be able to throw it much faster. However, the only thing that happened was that they became better at throwing a weighted baseball, it didn't help their pitching with a regular baseball at all.
Although, I think strength is very important in sports and if you give me two athletes of equal ability but differing strength levels, I'll take the stronger athlete every time. However, more brute strength does not always translate into longer drives. If you look at Michelle Wie she has an inate ability to hit the ball a long way. Yet, if you tested her grip strength or overall strength and compared it to every male touring pro she would probably be at the bottom of the list. David Leadbetter said when they hired a strength and conditioning coach for her she was unable to do even one pull-up. So other factors are involved. Tiger Woods is much stronger now than he was as a rookie, but I don't think he is appreciably longer off the tee now, than he was then. He used a regular length driver, steel shaft and small head yet was the longest hitter on tour. He is much stronger now and more fit yet he only picked up yardage going to a larger clubhead and using a longer and lighter shaft, which it doesn't seem he can control.
The "Speed Chain" looks interesting to me, I've been to their web site, and I'll probably look into giving it a try at some point. They also have good information on training on their site.
I'm not sure that swinging a lighter club faster would necessarily translate into a faster swing with your regular clubs. I am not an expert in this field, but from my understanding of specificity of exercise that the pattern you groove is very specific and limited carry over. Thus if you groove a pattern for swinging a lighter club the speed gained may not carry over to swinging a regular club. As an example of specificity, when I was in high school our baseball coach had all the pitchers throwing weighted baseballs. The thought was when they went back to regular baseball they would be able to throw it much faster. However, the only thing that happened was that they became better at throwing a weighted baseball, it didn't help their pitching with a regular baseball at all.
Although, I think strength is very important in sports and if you give me two athletes of equal ability but differing strength levels, I'll take the stronger athlete every time. However, more brute strength does not always translate into longer drives. If you look at Michelle Wie she has an inate ability to hit the ball a long way. Yet, if you tested her grip strength or overall strength and compared it to every male touring pro she would probably be at the bottom of the list. David Leadbetter said when they hired a strength and conditioning coach for her she was unable to do even one pull-up. So other factors are involved. Tiger Woods is much stronger now than he was as a rookie, but I don't think he is appreciably longer off the tee now, than he was then. He used a regular length driver, steel shaft and small head yet was the longest hitter on tour. He is much stronger now and more fit yet he only picked up yardage going to a larger clubhead and using a longer and lighter shaft, which it doesn't seem he can control.
The "Speed Chain" looks interesting to me, I've been to their web site, and I'll probably look into giving it a try at some point. They also have good information on training on their site.
bantamben2
Banned
i agree when tiger was sixteen he seemed even longer than he is now he used to cream it i remember him hitting 300 yard 3 woods all day at the us amateur. i think the strength allows you to support the faster swing better and control it better. also jim i was wondering what altitude do you live at.
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