Brian Manzella for Golf Magazine, Golf.com & FRONT9 - Tiger's Hand Move with Irons

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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Just a side note. Using this move in the same sentence as an undesirable flip is a total waste of time. Some on the fringe wouldn't advocate this move to an average hacker because they "flip too soon". Well if you don't play golf, or don't teach golf, or just don't know what you're talking about, that explanation sounds fine. But all players should be considering these parts regardless if it looks like they "flip" too soon. But again, you would have to know what the hell you were saying, or actually play golf.
 
pure vardon, pure armour, pure jacobs, pure tomasello, pure kelley

You've definitely misunderstood Kelley's flat left wrist because you used to think it should remain flat ad infinitum ad nauseum. Or as you Ben Doylites advocated, you believed the right wrist should remain bent back ad infinitum ad nauseum. Both wrists should unhinge to hit a golf ball well, but according to your own summit's scientist, Sasho?, the left wrist should unhinge (deviate) ulnarly prior to impact and only extend (dorsi flex) post impact as a passive inevitable response to what just took place. Kelley said the same thing. Sasho says 4, 2, 3 just like Kelley, because, like Kelley, Sasho didn't put #1 in to his swinging model. Vardon, Armour, Jacobs, Tomosello, me, Croker, and now, you, say 4,1,2,3 and #3 eventually causes your late flip as it inevitably and inexorably will and responsively and responsibly should.

But the real #2 is not a flip. The real #3 causes a post impact flip if a good #2 happens before impact. In other words #3 roll creates a timely flip if you let it; but I wouldn't try to cause a #3 roll/late flip because you'd need to try to cause it near the end of your backswing in order to have it happen .25 seconds later around impact. You really must be talented to bow your lead wrist and cause it to flatten and bend forward through the ball while your lead hip and lead shoulder cooperate by moving in and up for the whole thing to work it all out right. Sasho never says what causes the lead arm to separate from the torso after the torso's inital acceleration keeps it pinned to the chest. Perhaps a'la John Jacobs/ Homer Kelly it's the #1 trail arm throw that propels the lead arm off the chest and a'la Tommy Armour, it's the trail wrist that flattens or straightens as #2 to speed the plow so quickly that there still remains some #1 thereafter to keep the plow moving as it magically becomes #3. #1 is #3 after #2 is done. Brian you are now officially 4 barrel. Straighten the trail arm for your tangential acceleration and the trail wrist will also straighten in a timely manner to wallop the ball; you'll get your late flip I guarantee it.

Good luck with your pay for play. I will not. All that you promote was figured out anecdotally in the dirt long ago. Stop tring to cause what should be allowed. You'll still not master it, but you'll give the magic of the trail forearm and the trail wrist a'la Vardon, Armour and Tomasello, and not Kelley or Doyle, a fighting chance. Let both wrists unhinge before you strike the ball but you needn't cause them to.
 
You've definitely misunderstood Kelley's flat left wrist because you used to think it should remain flat ad infinitum ad nauseum. Or as you Ben Doylites advocated, you believed the right wrist should remain bent back ad infinitum ad nauseum. Both wrists should unhinge to hit a golf ball well, but according to your own summit's scientist, Sasho?, the left wrist should unhinge (deviate) ulnarly prior to impact and only extend (dorsi flex) post impact as a passive inevitable response to what just took place. Kelley said the same thing. Sasho says 4, 2, 3 just like Kelley, because, like Kelley, Sasho didn't put #1 in to his swinging model. Vardon, Armour, Jacobs, Tomosello, me, Croker, and now, you, say 4,1,2,3 and #3 eventually causes your late flip as it inevitably and inexorably will and responsively and responsibly should.

But the real #2 is not a flip. The real #3 causes a post impact flip if a good #2 happens before impact. In other words #3 roll creates a timely flip if you let it; but I wouldn't try to cause a #3 roll/late flip because you'd need to try to cause it near the end of your backswing in order to have it happen .25 seconds later around impact. You really must be talented to bow your lead wrist and cause it to flatten and bend forward through the ball while your lead hip and lead shoulder cooperate by moving in and up for the whole thing to work it all out right. Sasho never says what causes the lead arm to separate from the torso after the torso's inital acceleration keeps it pinned to the chest. Perhaps a'la John Jacobs/ Homer Kelly it's the #1 trail arm throw that propels the lead arm off the chest and a'la Tommy Armour, it's the trail wrist that flattens or straightens as #2 to speed the plow so quickly that there still remains some #1 thereafter to keep the plow moving as it magically becomes #3. #1 is #3 after #2 is done. Brian you are now officially 4 barrel. Straighten the trail arm for your tangential acceleration and the trail wrist will also straighten in a timely manner to wallop the ball; you'll get your late flip I guarantee it.

Good luck with your pay for play. I will not. All that you promote was figured out anecdotally in the dirt long ago. Stop tring to cause what should be allowed. You'll still not master it, but you'll give the magic of the trail forearm and the trail wrist a'la Vardon, Armour and Tomasello, and not Kelley or Doyle, a fighting chance. Let both wrists unhinge before you strike the ball but you needn't cause them to.

 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
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The new site will have many links to it, and multiple announcements of it.



You've definitely misunderstood Kelley's flat left wrist because you used to think it should remain flat ad infinitum ad nauseum. .....

That day pasted long, long ago.

But, there will always be a loon that thinks that it should be dragged, driven, held, aimed, locked, semi-locked, etc through impact.

This thread is about HOW to do it.

Even though the how could be just a series of other movements, actively applying a negative torque to the top of the grip is how some NEED TO do it.

You can still come to the free site and try to fit everything into the yellow wrapper.
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Retro fitting.

All these sequences 4,1,2, etc.. What? That crap stalled my progress as a golfer. It made me better initially...but anyone going down the 3 imperative highway will end up with a handle dragging, inside out swing that is not effective in playing golf.

Banging down on it and feeling that pressure may feel nice, but it is not what the best players do and I regret every thinking that players like Armour, Lee Westwood (I don't know why I thought this but indulge me) Cotton, Runyan were just flip timers.

Dragging the wet mop and the chase for the almighty "lag" has stalled the progress and/or ruined a good number of players.

An old pro around where I live told me back in 2007 when I wanted "lag" that studying the yellow book was a fools errand and that chasing lag had ruined many a good player. Wish I had listened.
 
it makes total sense to me that the wrist has to unhinge into and through impact at least to some degree. The question I have is what is the "intention" of really good golfers. Are they trying to unhinge the wrist, trying to hold on to some degree, or just letting it happen?

For me, If I try to decrease the angle, it results in a little flip and a closed clubface, so I have to have the feeling of hitting towards an aiming point slightly in front of the ball to get it to release at the right time. I know it's unbending, just trying to get it to not unbend too early. Now I'm a 5 handicap, so what I'm doing versus a pro, it night and day.
 
Wow. Out of the loop for a couple days and look what you miss. :)

Only been through the first couple pages yet but...

When are some going to quit equating what they don't see on video as something that does not happen? Didn't we just backhand this mentality with the deceleration not happening non sense?
 
it makes total sense to me that the wrist has to unhinge into and through impact at least to some degree. The question I have is what is the "intention" of really good golfers. Are they trying to unhinge the wrist, trying to hold on to some degree, or just letting it happen?

For me, If I try to decrease the angle, it results in a little flip and a closed clubface, so I have to have the feeling of hitting towards an aiming point slightly in front of the ball to get it to release at the right time. I know it's unbending, just trying to get it to not unbend too early. Now I'm a 5 handicap, so what I'm doing versus a pro, it night and day.

I have the same exact position for this discussion............you are on the wrong side unfortunately judging by the responses to my posts.
 
Greg,

Have you ever tried pulling back on the handle through impact so that your left wrist would bend straight back on itself?

I have video of working pulling inward at impact that I will send you, I told you I am a big believer in that. If anything happened with the wrist it was unintentional and never considered, meaning I conciously neither tried to hold the wrist flat, or bend the wrist.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The point....

If you took someone who is "mini-flipper trying to drag the handle" who could hit a reasonable ball-divot 7-iron shot 140+ toward a target, and you face on videoed them doing it with TrackMan running, you'd get—for example—a non-laggy delivery with a bending too soon before impact left wrist on video and a dynamic loft of ~30°.

If they INCREASED the speed that the left wrist was bending back on itself—properly called going toward extension—and they produced a shot that went 140+ with a 7-iron toward the target and captured on face-on video with TrackMan running....

What do you think that you'd see on video and TrackMan???????


 

Dariusz J.

New member
"Most of what most golfers are doing is unintentional." —Brian Manzella

"...and there are golfers who are doing nothing intentional during the motion" -- Dariusz Jedrzejewski, from autopsy.

I really do not know how difficult is for some people to believe that even the best conscious intention is more timing-inducing than no conscious intention at all and subduing everything to naturality of physics and anatomy.

Cheers
 
"...and there are golfers who are doing nothing intentional during the motion" -- Dariusz Jedrzejewski, from autopsy.

I really do not know how difficult is for some people to believe that even the best conscious intention is more timing-inducing than no conscious intention at all and subduing everything to naturality of physics and anatomy.

Cheers

I agree Dariusz with one minor (ok not too minor) caveat. One needs to first learn the movement(s). After that the motion can become automatic.
 
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