Brian Manzella for Golf Magazine, Golf.com & FRONT9 - Tiger's Hand Move with Irons

[tongzilla]

If you told me to try to bend my left wrist faster through impact, I would hit the ball higher with more dynamic loft, and my left wrist would probably look more bent at impact.

 

[Kevin Shields]

If you told me to try to bend my left wrist faster through impact, I would hit the ball higher with more dynamic loft, and my left wrist would probably look more bent at impact.

Would be interesting to find out

 

[GeoffDickson]

Lower dynamic loft
Flatter appearing left wrist.

I would have guessed the same...but only because BM was leading us down that path.

If you told me to try to bend my left wrist faster through impact, I would hit the ball higher with more dynamic loft, and my left wrist would probably look more bent at impact.

Without the leading/trick question, I would have said this ^

Can't wait to hear the reason why.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I agree Dariusz with one minor (ok not too minor) caveat. One needs to first learn the movement(s). After that the motion can become automatic.

True. But a lot and I mean A LOT can be automated thanks to a proper setup and applying the trigger phase.

Cheers

 

[Jared Willerson]

In going over this while practicing I have reached the conclusion that reconciles a flip and release, IMO.

A timed flip, is not really a lot to do with the hands but more a timed handle drag. Handle dragging causes a flip and inconsistent contact with the ground (irons) this is because when you drag from the top the release point of the hands in the downswing becomes erratic and tougher to time well.

In a well timed good release, there is no handle dragging, contact with the ground is more consistent. So, flipping the hands harder and earlier, with no handle drag, is really the golf swing.

Amateur analysis I am sure but it makes sense in my head.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Jared,

Continue on with your thought...

 

[Lindsey Newman]

You've definitely misunderstood Kelley's flat left wrist because you used to think it should remain flat ad infinitum ad nauseum. Or as you Ben Doylites advocated, you believed the right wrist should remain bent back ad infinitum ad nauseum. Both wrists should unhinge to hit a golf ball well, but according to your own summit's scientist, Sasho?, the left wrist should unhinge (deviate) ulnarly prior to impact and only extend (dorsi flex) post impact as a passive inevitable response to what just took place. Kelley said the same thing. Sasho says 4, 2, 3 just like Kelley, because, like Kelley, Sasho didn't put #1 in to his swinging model. Vardon, Armour, Jacobs, Tomosello, me, Croker, and now, you, say 4,1,2,3 and #3 eventually causes your late flip as it inevitably and inexorably will and responsively and responsibly should.

But the real #2 is not a flip. The real #3 causes a post impact flip if a good #2 happens before impact. In other words #3 roll creates a timely flip if you let it; but I wouldn't try to cause a #3 roll/late flip because you'd need to try to cause it near the end of your backswing in order to have it happen .25 seconds later around impact. You really must be talented to bow your lead wrist and cause it to flatten and bend forward through the ball while your lead hip and lead shoulder cooperate by moving in and up for the whole thing to work it all out right. Sasho never says what causes the lead arm to separate from the torso after the torso's inital acceleration keeps it pinned to the chest. Perhaps a'la John Jacobs/ Homer Kelly it's the #1 trail arm throw that propels the lead arm off the chest and a'la Tommy Armour, it's the trail wrist that flattens or straightens as #2 to speed the plow so quickly that there still remains some #1 thereafter to keep the plow moving as it magically becomes #3. #1 is #3 after #2 is done. Brian you are now officially 4 barrel. Straighten the trail arm for your tangential acceleration and the trail wrist will also straighten in a timely manner to wallop the ball; you'll get your late flip I guarantee it.

Good luck with your pay for play. I will not. All that you promote was figured out anecdotally in the dirt long ago. Stop tring to cause what should be allowed. You'll still not master it, but you'll give the magic of the trail forearm and the trail wrist a'la Vardon, Armour and Tomasello, and not Kelley or Doyle, a fighting chance. Let both wrists unhinge before you strike the ball but you needn't cause them to.

Just read through this again and all I can say is......."the human digestive system hasn't got used to any dairy products yet"

 

[Kevin Shields]

Just read through this again and all I can say is......."the human digestive system hasn't got used to any dairy products yet"

So in other "f**k me, what have you been reading?"

 

[Lindsey Newman]

In going over this while practicing I have reached the conclusion that reconciles a flip and release, IMO.

A timed flip, is not really a lot to do with the hands but more a timed handle drag. Handle dragging causes a flip and inconsistent contact with the ground (irons) this is because when you drag from the top the release point of the hands in the downswing becomes erratic and tougher to time well.

In a well timed good release, there is no handle dragging, contact with the ground is more consistent. So, flipping the hands harder and earlier, with no handle drag, is really the golf swing.

Amateur analysis I am sure but it makes sense in my head.

Tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

Anyway, I liked the feelings and thoughts you were sharing. I love when folks regurgitate info after they have processed it, it often helps others to get the idea.

(BTW, whenever I write or say "inbox" I wanna say "that's what she said")

 

[coophitter]

Just read through this again and all I can say is......."the human digestive system hasn't got used to any dairy products yet"

Just trying to get banned from this forum with stream of consciousness tgm barrage aimed at BM to give him good natured hard time for being a GSED who got mad went rogue and fortunately popped up on the other side and is now making some sense at last. As ye waggle so shall ye swing -- so go ahead and throw the right forearm and both wrists right from the top and right into your right big toe without altering the pose of your body. Uncock both hands to start the downswing and straighten the right arm thereafter and leave the body out of it altogether. Change up the sequence and see what happens. Give it a try. I thought Tomasello was insane and he gave me a career. I wasn't good at hands first. Forearm first for me without one hint of body action and without any hold back of the wrists or worry that they flip. Now I'm trying to bend the left wrist forward while I straighten my left knee and clear my left hip a'la Brian Manzella. I like it but likely won't use it as my go to shot. I think I'd need a lesson in person from him to truly give it a try but I'm too busy or lazy to do so. But so far it's 100% more effective for me than anything I ever learned from the GSEDs who told me to leave all that power and speed in my right arm and wrists out of the shot altogether. Brian's forward bending wrist gives me the freedom, ease of motion, and pure fun I try to have in every shot. I take less of a divot than I normally do but then again I normally don't take a divot so maybe I aready release the clubhead somewhat like Brian suggests and I don't need to try to do what I already do. Brian is insane for telling me to actively use my wrists in a forward direction, but I like it. Thanks Brian. To everyone else: keep writing whatever psychogolfbabble you want. I'll read it and enjoy it even if its TGM book literate because I actually think Homer Kelley hung the moon and I only understand about four paragraphs he ever wrote. In my case I killed most of his messengers but not him.

 

[wulsy]

But so far it's 100% more effective for me than anything I ever learned from the GSEDs who told me to leave all that power and speed in my right arm and wrists out of the shot altogether.

Those guys are the dumbest golf instruction has ever seen.

I think it is unfortunate that BM has been tarnished with this background as it detracts from his credibility and give his enemies a lot of ammo. But everyone deserves a second chance, right? Even the insufferable MJ.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Those guys are the dumbest golf instruction has ever seen.

I think it is unfortunate that BM has been tarnished with this background as it detracts from his credibility and give his enemies a lot of ammo. But everyone deserves a second chance, right? Even the insufferable MJ.

I think the fact that they have the GSED background significantly enhances their credibility.

They went, they learned and now they know better.

 

[wulsy]

Much as I respect your opinion Lindsey, I disagree with you on this one. It shows a certain gullibility to fall hook, line and sinker for some of the idiotic ideas of tgm.

 

[ehanczaryk]

Much as I respect your opinion Lindsey, I disagree with you on this one. It shows a certain gullibility to fall hook, line and sinker for some of the idiotic ideas of tgm.

'Try again, fail again, fail better' Samuel Beckett

 

[johnnymarlboro]

'Try again, fail again, fail better' Samuel Beckett

Is that the author/poet or the guy from "Quantum Leap"?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Much as I respect your opinion Lindsey, I disagree with you on this one. It shows a certain gullibility to fall hook, line and sinker for some of the idiotic ideas of tgm.

Well, I was certainly gullible. I get your point, but everyone was just trying get the best info they could and then vet it. Somebody has to trip so everyone else knows there is a hole. We are doing our best to prevent others from making our mistakes.

 

[Kevin Shields]

A certain level of gullibility is unfortunately or fortunately part of human nature.We want to believe even though sometimes a lot of it doesn't make sense.That's why most people in this world are religious.

I normally really enjoy your posts but this one offended me a lot and was really over the top.

 

[tongzilla]

Without the leading/trick question, I would have said this ^

Can't wait to hear the reason why.

one of the easiest ways for me to hit the ball higher- and I do this often on the course when I have to hit over a tree- is to try to bend my left wrist faster through impact. So how the heck does trying to bend my left wrist faster through impact decrease dynamic loft I have no idea. I don't know what my left wrist looks like at impact but the ball definitely goes higher and I'm 99% sure it's because there's more loft at impact, cuz it launches higher too.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm sure you're doing other things as well to hit it higher, ball position, axis tilt, etc...

 

[Tball88]

ok, like I said, I'm a little thick and am a self professed, underplane handle dragger. I finally, finally felt the left wrist bend upon itself, and the only way I could finally get the feeling was to start swinging with a split grip. If I swing with a split grip, then the club releases properly, left wrist bends back on on itself.

What I noticed, was a much higher ball flight, probably because I'm now using proper loft. Completely different feel. I know have to work with it to determine what my distances will be and what kind of ball flight I can expect.