Downswing
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Brian Manzella
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Yes, Wusly. Soon.
Now I ask this question long enough that it is obvious they don't know the answer.
No biggie, nobody ever know anything.
Now for the last time:
From the perspective of the interaction with the COP and COM and the combined ground reaction force vector:
Why do golfers who SHIFT early turn less early and then turn later?
Why do golfers who turn early NOT SHIFT as much early?
Michael Finney
New
I saw this referenced in a text of some note:
"Brain, kinetics, kinematics, blurry Hogan video..."
"Brain, kinetics, kinematics, blurry Hogan video..."
Brian Manzella
Administrator
This is as scientific as anything to do with the golf swing.....maybe the FIRST THING I would teach someone who was interested in Golf Science.
This stone cold factual, multiple times fact checked, inescapable scientific truth has many in this profession.
Thanks to Dr. Kwon for bring this to light....
This stone cold factual, multiple times fact checked, inescapable scientific truth has many in this profession.
Thanks to Dr. Kwon for bring this to light....
Brian Manzella
Administrator
No doubt and no argument that muscles and bones hold you up (at address or just standing) but soon as they stop holding you up, and you start to fall, you lose a lot of that cGRF vector's magnitude until you hit the earth (and then you have more temporarily)...
It's great that folks have Dr. Kwon's images to learn from—if they LEARN from them!
So, the answers should be easy now....
WHY DO GOLFER'S WHO TURN EARLY NOT SHIFT AS MUCH AND GOLFER WHO SHIFT EARLY THEN ARE ABLE TO TURN EASILY?
You have the answers in your Kwon images....
At this point, its an IQ test...
It's great that folks have Dr. Kwon's images to learn from—if they LEARN from them!
So, the answers should be easy now....
WHY DO GOLFER'S WHO TURN EARLY NOT SHIFT AS MUCH AND GOLFER WHO SHIFT EARLY THEN ARE ABLE TO TURN EASILY?
You have the answers in your Kwon images....
At this point, its an IQ test...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Such an easy question .... just look at the images .... the WHY is easy, easy, easy
Brian,
The no shift early turners are pivoting on the back foot because they turn before the COP is moved to the front foot. The early shift later turners can pivot on the front leg because thy have moved the COP there first. May be too simple or not what you are looking for but that's my stab at it.
The no shift early turners are pivoting on the back foot because they turn before the COP is moved to the front foot. The early shift later turners can pivot on the front leg because thy have moved the COP there first. May be too simple or not what you are looking for but that's my stab at it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The back foot?
No, the early turners DO NOT SHIFT to the back foot much at all until later in the backswing....SO....why don't they get there earlier?
The early_shift folks get to the right leg early and the question is....WHY DO THEY TURN so well then?
No, the early turners DO NOT SHIFT to the back foot much at all until later in the backswing....SO....why don't they get there earlier?
The early_shift folks get to the right leg early and the question is....WHY DO THEY TURN so well then?
OK. Sorry. I was referencing the downswing. For the backswing, the early turners don't get the COP to the back foot early because starting the turn early prevents them from getting it there and they are forced to pivot over both legs with COP more between the feet. The early shifters can turn later and easier because it is easier to pivot over a single post as in the right foot. Am I close Brian?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Closer Chuck...
You'll get there because you are TRYING TO LEARN,
The yahoos that think they know everything can't answer the simple questions in 3 days.
So...Chuck....Why doesn't turning early CAUSE YOU not to have the ABILITY to shift as well as a NON EARLY TURNER and why does SHIFTING QUITE A BIT and doing that BEFORE you try to turn then put you in a position to TURN A BUNCH MORE?
Guys....IQ test....a 5th grade class might get this.....I am literally trying to help you guys.
You'll get there because you are TRYING TO LEARN,
The yahoos that think they know everything can't answer the simple questions in 3 days.
So...Chuck....Why doesn't turning early CAUSE YOU not to have the ABILITY to shift as well as a NON EARLY TURNER and why does SHIFTING QUITE A BIT and doing that BEFORE you try to turn then put you in a position to TURN A BUNCH MORE?
Guys....IQ test....a 5th grade class might get this.....I am literally trying to help you guys.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Understanding the Combined Ground Reaction Force Vector's interaction with the golfer's Center of Gravity and how it assist the golfer with orienting himself in space and the tilted parts of the rotations of the golfer's body, is THE #1 thing to learn about how the body moves.
This simple to understand interaction explains so much about how the swing works.
So....since CHUCK T has moved us along....
Why does turning early CAUSE YOU not to have the ABILITY to shift as well?
And.. why does SHIFTING QUITE A BIT EARLY and doing that BEFORE you try to turn, then put you in a position to TURN A BUNCH MORE?"
This simple to understand interaction explains so much about how the swing works.
So....since CHUCK T has moved us along....
Why does turning early CAUSE YOU not to have the ABILITY to shift as well?
And.. why does SHIFTING QUITE A BIT EARLY and doing that BEFORE you try to turn, then put you in a position to TURN A BUNCH MORE?"
Here's my attempt after looking at Dr Kwons pictures and explanations:
When the COP passes the COM the GRF vector creates a clockwise torque about the COM. This encourages rotation and discourages lateral movement (to the players right).
In an early shift swing the COP passes the COM about the end of the takeaway, hence from that point on rotation is made easier by the torque around the COM and further lateral movement to the players right made more difficult. This sets things up to be easier to start moving left in the transition!
In an early turn swing the COP passes the COM later hence the torque around the COM appears later in the backswing, making it more difficult to rotate late in the backswing and more difficult to shift left in the transition.
If I’ve understood things correctly it appears the physics of Dr Kwons model is saying an early shift swing makes it easier to rotate in the 2nd half of the backswing and easier to start shifting left in the transition.
When the COP passes the COM the GRF vector creates a clockwise torque about the COM. This encourages rotation and discourages lateral movement (to the players right).
In an early shift swing the COP passes the COM about the end of the takeaway, hence from that point on rotation is made easier by the torque around the COM and further lateral movement to the players right made more difficult. This sets things up to be easier to start moving left in the transition!
In an early turn swing the COP passes the COM later hence the torque around the COM appears later in the backswing, making it more difficult to rotate late in the backswing and more difficult to shift left in the transition.
If I’ve understood things correctly it appears the physics of Dr Kwons model is saying an early shift swing makes it easier to rotate in the 2nd half of the backswing and easier to start shifting left in the transition.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Great answer...there is some detail I will add, but that is more or less correct.
Now....the second question and answer
BUT WHY?? Does it pass later?
I was assuming in the early turn swing you'd be trying to get to the same top of backswing position and hence "force" the COP past the COM if you follow me.
I think I know what you’re getting at.I’ll give it another go.
From Dr Kwons images at setup the GRF is pointing slightly to the players right of the COM. If the player starts to rotate but doesn’t shift to his right the GRF will point at the COM or even to the players left of the COM. This will create a torque opposite to the early shift situation. i.e. The COP will be remaining stable or even moving to the other side of the COM, which will therefore discourage lateral movement to the players right and I’m actually thinking even discourage rotation. I’m guessing in a purely physics based model the COP probably never passes the COM to the players right side in an early turn swing.
It all seems to boil down to where the GRF vector points in relation to the COM in the first move off the ball and the resultant torque created.
A bit like a little push on the players right hip in the direction of diagonally behind and away from them in the takeaway for the early shift and seeing what happens. And then a little push on the left hip diagonally away and behind them in the early turn swing and see what happens.
Oh, and then keep pushing as they turn because it's a torque!
I think I know what you’re getting at.I’ll give it another go.
From Dr Kwons images at setup the GRF is pointing slightly to the players right of the COM. If the player starts to rotate but doesn’t shift to his right the GRF will point at the COM or even to the players left of the COM. This will create a torque opposite to the early shift situation. i.e. The COP will be remaining stable or even moving to the other side of the COM, which will therefore discourage lateral movement to the players right and I’m actually thinking even discourage rotation. I’m guessing in a purely physics based model the COP probably never passes the COM to the players right side in an early turn swing.
It all seems to boil down to where the GRF vector points in relation to the COM in the first move off the ball and the resultant torque created.
A bit like a little push on the players right hip in the direction of diagonally behind and away from them in the takeaway for the early shift and seeing what happens. And then a little push on the left hip diagonally away and behind them in the early turn swing and see what happens.
Oh, and then keep pushing as they turn because it's a torque!
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Close....but not quite
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The answer is in what happens if you stand on one leg (like your left) and make a backswing...or a whole swing.
The whole way the downswing pivot works is that ground reaction forces work at diagonal angles towards each other, coming from the feet, in reaction to opposing forces that the feet generate. The left and right foot are producing force vectors that work opposite to one another. The GRF vectors would have to be heading towards one another as a result. It causes a force coupling event that allows rotation to occur, as well as the lateral translation of the pelvis.
It would only make sense that if you initiated a similar move to begin the backswing, those same forces could work to allow for greater rotational torque going back.
Guys are so concerned with centered pivots yet they KNOW that they can get a lot of rotation going with a lateral shift of the pelvis in the downswing. Would you not be generating the same type of rotational potential going back if you shifted weight?
Just a guess.
It would only make sense that if you initiated a similar move to begin the backswing, those same forces could work to allow for greater rotational torque going back.
Guys are so concerned with centered pivots yet they KNOW that they can get a lot of rotation going with a lateral shift of the pelvis in the downswing. Would you not be generating the same type of rotational potential going back if you shifted weight?
Just a guess.
Cos everything moves left and the COM and the COP line up?
Cos the COM and the COP don't line up till much later?
Brian Manzella
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