Downswing

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
After watching Kaymer blow a ten, yes 10, that's zehn, dix, diez, tio...., shot lead today I went and hit a few eggs on the range, the result of which is this question:

Is it even desirable to finish standing on the left leg in a balanced position? I doubt it.

The harder you push up that final Combined Ground Reaction Force into impact, the more likely you are to totally unweight your left leg and fall back on your right, ala Nicklaus early in his career with a driver.

The REASON folks finish on the left leg in really good swings is that the CLUB PULLS THEM to that spot.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The study of athletic motion is not a hard science. I believe its considered a gray science like psychology at most, and more likely just a subject matter like philosophy. Sport psychologists, biomechanists, exercise scientists, etc. know that they don't exactly know how humans and other organisms initiate voluntary muscular movements except to agree that the brain or motor control division of the central nervous system does it.

There isn't a scientist alive who can tell you what starts a downswing except to say that whatever a particular golfer commands himself to do is what starts it, and it is that particular command that determines whether it is arguably a good or not so good downswing compared to every downswing that's ever been made.

Umpires often have to determine whether a batter swung, checked his swing, started to swing but stopped it with no intent to swing, or intended to swing, and did swing, but tried to act as if he didn't.

When Tiger awes us with his ability to check his downswing, did he start it and stop it?, or did he not even start it? What starts a downswing in my opinion is the individual golfer's intent to make the ball do what he wants it to do given the situation at hand. Ideally that intent is not really in English, or the native tongue of the golfer, as human language is probably too slow to expect the best results.

But maybe regular language is good enough! Who knows? Whatever the language that is used however, it is human thought that starts the downswing and thebody obeys in accordance with its capacity to carry out or perform the thought.

Try this Coop.

Get a medium low stool. Sit on it.

Keep your head back and try to push yourself upright.



You violated the rules of GRFs. Hope you didn't injure yourself.
 
Thank you for transporting back 35 years ago to my Philosophy of the Mind class at Cal Berkeley. It's good to know that I haven't changed much. I was confused then as I am now.

The study of athletic motion is not a hard science. I believe its considered a gray science like psychology at most, and more likely just a subject matter like philosophy. Sport psychologists, biomechanists, exercise scientists, etc. know that they don't exactly know how humans and other organisms initiate voluntary muscular movements except to agree that the brain or motor control division of the central nervous system does it.

There isn't a scientist alive who can tell you what starts a downswing except to say that whatever a particular golfer commands himself to do is what starts it, and it is that particular command that determines whether it is arguably a good or not so good downswing compared to every downswing that's ever been made.

Umpires often have to determine whether a batter swung, checked his swing, started to swing but stopped it with no intent to swing, or intended to swing, and did swing, but tried to act as if he didn't.

When Tiger awes us with his ability to check his downswing, did he start it and stop it?, or did he not even start it? What starts a downswing in my opinion is the individual golfer's intent to make the ball do what he wants it to do given the situation at hand. Ideally that intent is not really in English, or the native tongue of the golfer, as human language is probably too slow to expect the best results.

But maybe regular language is good enough! Who knows? Whatever the language that is used however, it is human thought that starts the downswing and thebody obeys in accordance with its capacity to carry out or perform the thought.
 

joep

New
Love that answer. Thank you sir, I`ll be going with that. How about this one. Just read a book written by a golf scientist that says all that is said about what creates how fast you swing is the force of the right forearm. What do you think about that?
 

joep

New
I believe you,could you tell me why?

What he said quote.

Simple physics calculations demonstrates that the mass of the system is not the main contributor to the production of the club head speed. The body is the stabilizer and provides no more 6% of clubhead speed. The hands moving down from the top to impact contribute about 18% and the flexing of the dominate hand by the right forearm muscles produce about 76% of the clubhead speed. Stop concentrating on your big muscles. In fact, over emphasizing body rotation is one of the major sources of inconsistencies in the golf stroke..............Thoughts??????
 
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As I've gotten older and less strong and practice less this is exactly what I've done. Sort of a throw back to the old Jim Flick/Bob Toski teaching days: just swing the club with your arms and let your body react and support them. Of course I've got 45 years of all sorts of body movements going on so I can't say my body isn't doing anything (on it's own). I just don't really think about body stuff anymore other than a little turn and a little weight shift. Anything more and I fall over. Can't say it's any good for distance but I rely on technology for distance these days. :)

I believe you,could you tell me why?

What he said quote.

Simple physics calculations demonstrates that the mass of the system is not the main contributor to the production of the club head speed. The body is the stabilizer and provides no more 6% of clubhead speed. The hands moving down from the top to impact contribute about 18% and the flexing of the dominate hand by the right forearm muscles produce about 76% of the clubhead speed. Stop concentrating on your big muscles. In fact, over emphasizing body rotation is one of the major sources of inconsistencies in the golf stroke..............Thoughts??????
 
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Golf is a two handed sport. The hinging and unhinging of both hands about both wrists is the dominant source of clubhead velocity in orthodox full swings. Both hands resist change of direction and flex against what they are trying to move, which is themselves and the club that they are holding. When these flexed hands overcome the resistance and then overpower themselves and the club, the clubhead then accelerates to max velocity well before impact. That max velocity is sustained if bigger body parts like the bent trail forearm, both arms and the rest of the body go through the same process until the swing is over.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I believe you, could you tell me why?

Jack K. said:
Simple physics calculations demonstrates that the mass of the system is not the main contributor to the production of the club head speed. The body is the stabilizer and provides no more 6% of clubhead speed. The hands moving down from the top to impact contribute about 18% and the flexing of the dominate hand by the right forearm muscles produce about 76% of the clubhead speed. Stop concentrating on your big muscles. In fact, over emphasizing body rotation is one of the major sources of inconsistencies in the golf stroke.

Thoughts??????

As I've gotten older and less strong and practice less this is exactly what I've done. Sort of a throw back to the old Jim Flick/Bob Toski teaching days: just swing the club with your arms and let your body react and support them. Of course I've got 45 years of all sorts of body movements going on so I can't say my body isn't doing anything (on it's own). I just don't really think about body stuff anymore other than a little turn and a little weight shift. Anything more and I fall over. Can't say it's any good for distance but I rely on technology for distance these days. :)

Golf is a two handed sport. The hinging and unhinging of both hands about both wrists is the dominant source of clubhead velocity in orthodox full swings. Both hands resist change of direction and flex against what they are trying to move, which is themselves and the club that they are holding. When these flexed hands overcome the resistance and then overpower themselves and the club, the clubhead then accelerates to max velocity well before impact. That max velocity is sustained if bigger body parts like the bent trail forearm, both arms and the rest of the body go through the same process until the swing is over.


WORKING ON THIS>>>>
 
Golf is a two handed sport. The hinging and unhinging of both hands about both wrists is the dominant source of clubhead velocity in orthodox full swings. Both hands resist change of direction and flex against what they are trying to move, which is themselves and the club that they are holding. When these flexed hands overcome the resistance and then overpower themselves and the club, the clubhead then accelerates to max velocity well before impact. That max velocity is sustained if bigger body parts like the bent trail forearm, both arms and the rest of the body go through the same process until the swing is over.

This looks like a copy&paste from somewhere. If it is then the guy who wrote it unfortunately has little grasp of the English language thus making the piece indecipherable, which is unfortunate as it may have been interesting to know what he really meant.
 
I assure you I did not copy and paste my remarks. I apologize for the English. I wrote it stream of consciousness without editing. I should have changed the terrible the third sentence, should have left out "well" in the fourth sentence, and clarified the last sentence a bit. Otherwise the words represent about the best way at the time I could describe a difficult to describe phenomena. Most of the comments on this site require explanation as specialized language like "going normal" is often used. Please just ask for explanation rather than criticizing the use of the English language. This site is full of poor grammar and usage but it still communicates well, especially when you request clarity or further explanation.

Here is a still not great English but amended version of my remarks:

Golf is a two handed sport. The hinging and unhinging of both hands about both wrists is the dominant source of clubhead velocity in orthodox full swings. Both hands resist change of direction and flex against what they are trying to move. What they are trying to move are themselves and the club that they are holding. When these flexed hands overcome the resistance and then overpower themselves and the club, the clubhead accelerates to max velocity before impact. That max velocity is sustained if bigger body parts like the bent trail forearm, both arms and the rest of the body go through the same process as the hands do until the swing is over.
 
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Golf is a two handed sport. The hinging and unhinging of both hands about both wrists is the dominant source of clubhead velocity in orthodox full swings. Both hands resist change of direction and flex against what they are trying to move, which are themselves and the club that they are holding. When these flexed hands overcome the resistance and then overpower themselves and the club, the clubhead then accelerates to max velocity before impact. That max velocity is sustained if bigger body parts like the bent trail forearm, both arms and the rest of the body go through the same process until the swing is over.

OK, coopyswinger;), thanks for the level headed response. It wasn't about the grammar or spelling, more about trying to understand the content itself.

Here are a couple of points where I am not sure what you mean:

Both hands resist change of direction and flex against what they are trying to move, which are themselves and the club that they are holding.
What do you mean by resisting the change of direction? By flexing I assume you mean increasing "lag"?

When these flexed hands overcome the resistance and then overpower themselves and the club, the clubhead then accelerates to max velocity before impact.
Overcome what resistance and how?

That max velocity is sustained if bigger body parts like the bent trail forearm, both arms and the rest of the body go through the same process until the swing is over.
What process are you referring to regarding the bigger body parts?

Thanks.
 
OK. Question 1: All objects, whether stationary or in motion, resist being moved. Hand bones are objects. So if hands are moving in one direction, they resist any effort to move them in another direction. The same law applies to every bone in your body and to anything that you are holding, like a golf club. The same law applies to a planet. If hands are attached via a passive flexible wrist joint to your arms, then they will want to stay where they are when any movement of the bigger arms occurs. This phenomena will keep hands in the condition they are, fully flexed at the wrist and already lagging the arm bones, or cause them to flex and then trail or lag the arm bones. This lagging condition of the hands will remain as long as the arms keep accelerating. But if you decide to use the hands muscularly, you will contract the flexor muscles in your forearms to flex the wrists/hands so that you can then contract the extensor muscles to extend the wrists/hands in order to actually do something with your hands, i.e., put them to work! You can simultaneously do the same with forearms, upper arms, hips, legs, feet, etc. Its similar to pushing a child on a swing. In that scenario, most humans will muscularly flex their hands and elbows in order to muscularly extend them to propel the child/swing.

All I'm saying is that I prefer hands to be muscularly active to help produce good golf swings, and both of them can work together to form a remarkable force couplet. I prefer that the right hand flexes and extends much like a good basketball player's free throw or a good rock skipper's rock skip. I prefer that the left hand perform like it would if you turn a Frisbee upside down and place your left thumb flush against the flat of the rim while the narrow edge of the rim is flush against the inside of your forearm. Fling that upside down Frisbee and I guarantee that your left wrist will muscularly hinge and unhinge to create the best fling, just as your right wrist would muscularly hinge and unhinge, though in a different way, to skip a good rock. Do either of these activities and you may not need written arguments to convince you that muscularly active wrists can be a huge advantage when used well.

Question 2: I hope answer 1 suffices here. To slam a door you will likely flex your dominant hand and elbow to then overcome the door's resistance to being slammed, and then you will muscularly extend those bones to get the job done. Very similar to what right arm and hand do in good golf swing.

Question 3: Question 1 answer should also answer this one. You must contract muscles to move bones in one direction, be they little or big bones. Then you must use opposing muscles to flex and contract to move these big or little bones in another direction. You must go through the same process to move every bone even though different muscles are used per each bone, and you can decide not to move a bone or a set of bones in favor of others.

This is another stream of consciousness blurt, so excuse the English. I've been arguing to use appropriate muscular force to move the right arm and forearm, left arm, and both hands to execute good, if not best, downswings for years. The only credible folks to agree with me in a public forum (Tomasello, Vardon, Armour, Jacobs, if they were alive, might agree), are Dr. Zick and Brian Manzella in his own unique way. The Manzella teacher who advocates the basketball jump shot downswing in a recent PGA magazine article I think would agree. Anyhow I'm done with it. I'll only argue face to face here on out. Thank you.
 
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ZAP

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These are the kind of discussions that make this place good! In clarifying your points you are forcing yourself and others to think through their ideas.
 
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