mandrin
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BIGBALL,
Probably, if you rotate such that at the top all weight is back on the left leg and stays there.
Experimenter's delight
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Probably, if you rotate such that at the top all weight is back on the left leg and stays there.
mandrin
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Mandy,
If I can be so bold as to educate you on the finer points of weight shift and the human perception thereof...
"The issue of weight shifting in a golf swing is an interesting but rather fuzzy affair.
We are aware of a ‘weight shift’ primarily by sensing the pressure between feet and ground. However, simply momentarily lifting one foot will immediately put all the weight on the other foot yet there has been no lateral shift of any body part. Hence our senses can be very misleading.
Shifting/rotating slowly body, arms or club will lead to a quasi-static transfer of weight. Doing the same very quickly can lead to quite a different dynamic weight shift. During a down swing our weight can actually both exceed and become less than our static weight."
...and...
"There is a substantial difference between our senses and reality regarding weight shift. Moreover I wonder if weight shift is actualy generally understood in such way hat people readily agree on this issue. However this makes it an ideal subject of discussion for golf forums.
During the downswing Tiger shifts his body vertically - downwards and upwards. Moreover he also shifts his weight horizontally accompanying all this with a vigorous rotation around both a vertical and a horizontal axis.
There are hence various ways to use the body. However an optimum swing likely includes motion of the heavy body parts, as cause not effect, to obtain adequate velocity for the clubhead with the least amount of strain/effort on all parts involved thus favoring also accuracy, repeatability and longevity."
Have you altered your thoughts since you shared such wisdom almost 2 years to the day....
Mandy, you know that as soon as you start saying that you have actually experimented with some golf in practical sense...that raises suspicions that you are just making it up....
So how many posts is it going to take for you to come out and say what you really think...
Far more likley that you will post www.angelfire.mandrin debunks a myth.com than actually swing a club...
So come on...quit with the stalling....give us your ideas so that we can cut out at least 10 pages of what will clearly become a 25 + page monster....
NB. If anyone reads this with the inner voice/narrator switched to anything other than "playful jibe" mode then you got it wrong... read betwen the emoticons...
golfbulldog,
Give me some time to try to understand what I wrote two years ago. It seems rather complex.
In the mean time let me just say that I am not acting following some devilish plot but just trying to show that a little personal experimenting can't possible hurt. My post is simply intended as a semi serious teaser to not take anything for granted and as far as possible check out things for your self. Golf is a milieu where there is soo much repetition of what has been said before and before and before.......
I remember seeing posts on a TGM forum saying that they were really swinging quite well but were worried that they were not doing it according to verse and prose. These people should trust there own sensations a bit more. I am continuously experimenting and it is very amusing and useful to form one's own opinion.
But foremost I like to stress that I am not advocating a revolutionary new type of swing which for 3 easy payments of $ 29.99 can be all yours and if not satisfied, money back plus another $100 on top to show that I am totally sure of my affair.
A simple common sense scientific approach is to try to take apart what you just put together. It is demanding but necessary to have steady progress. If someone tells you it is an imperative to cock your wrist than immediately try to swing without and discover the validity of things for your self.
Now I feel rather forced to go into heavy drinking to be able to sustain these exhausting weird conversations with you in the future.
mandrin
New
lasse,
There are opinions based on what you have learned from various sources and there are opinions based on what one has learned through personal experimentation.
What I have put forward is based not on what X, Y, or Z pontificates but very simply on being curious and performing playful unbiased experimentation.
mandrin
New
Mandrin,
Does the vertical axis of rotation remain unchanged (i.e. not moving laterally forward to the target) during your turning on the lead heel motion ? Will tell you later why I ask
Cheers
Dariusz,
It better remains unchanged otherwise one will topple over. It might very well be that the hips are somewhat off-center from the axis and thus counter balancing the club being swung. It is fun, try it, as it seems so counter intuitive.
Great to see you back!
Mandrin,
Great to see you back!
I use a pattern with pivot similar to the one you're describing. Interestingly I arrived at it some time ago based largely upon your previous posts. It was my perception that your experiments suggested the application of torque to the handle at transition in a sort of spend\launch fashion would be optimal.
Don't know if site rules allow for much elaboration on the pattern?
As for science, religion, and politics, it is most telling that Homer Kelly was a practitioner of the Christian Science faith/religion/church/philosophy.
Your posts are always illuminating and entertaining!
Mandrin,
Great to see you back!
I use a pattern with pivot similar to the one you're describing. Interestingly I arrived at it some time ago based largely upon your previous posts. It was my perception that your experiments suggested the application of torque to the handle at transition in a sort of spend\launch fashion would be optimal.
Don't know if site rules allow for much elaboration on the pattern?
As for science, religion, and politics, it is most telling that Homer Kelly was a practitioner of the Christian Science faith/religion/church/philosophy.
Your posts are always illuminating and entertaining!
On another site I ran across a post mentioning yet another book about Hogan's secret, seemingly it being on his left feet at the top. For fun I started to experiment with virtually all the weight over the heel of the left heel at address, and keeping it there, only using the right foot, close by, to maintain stability.
I started with just swinging and measuring club head speed without using a ball. Rather surprised to find that with, what felt like the same effort, I got a bit more club head speed with this one pivot swing than with a standard two pivot swing.
I went twice to the range just before it closed for the season and found it to be very doable. In effect I liked it very much. It is fun, using a driver, pure rotation, no weight shift, arms/club up and down, to see the ball still fly straight and on line.
Hence the swing is reduced to a rotation around a vertical axis through the left heel and an up and down motion for the arms and club. Left foot flared out, considerable lead knee flex. One starts to wonder a bit about weight shift.
This actually sounds like a (forgot who the trademark teacher is) drill from a kind of other method swing "using" gravity.
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David Lee gravity golf.
Slicer McGolf
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Mandrin,
If you maintained weight and pressure on your left and created one axis for rotation, would the rotational speed be increased when the mass (body and arms) is kept close to this one axis?
I'm thinking of the figure skater who spins faster when the legs and arms are brought in tight to the body.
mandrin
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Slicer McGolf,
That is true in general for any system rotating. You keep things close to the axis of rotation to reduce the moment of inertia. Thus allowing for a given torque to obtain more angular velocity. This the rational for the late hit.
If you keep a very tight short crisp swing, taut muscles throughout, you can obtain quite descent clubhead speed in part because you maintain a small mass moment of inertia and by producing more efficient proximal to distal energy flow.
mandrin
New
spktho,
Yes, indeed, but these are real meant as drills - hitting balls using full swing with the trail foot off the ground and either using one or two arms to swing the club. Not easy.
Yep, not easy at all. I followed most of the drills from his program about 15 years ago. Surprisingly, one is still able hit a 5 iron 190yds having just their left foot touching the ground(the drills allow for some hopping forward on the follow through). I guess one could still argue of a weight transfer--albeit from one part of the foot to another part of the same foot.
Dariusz J.
New member
Dariusz,
It better remains unchanged otherwise one will topple over. It might very well be that the hips are somewhat off-center from the axis and thus counter balancing the club being swung. It is fun, try it, as it seems so counter intuitive.
Mandrin,
It is not that coounterintuitive as many may think at first. That's the beauty of a biokinetic concept of establishing the vertical axis of rotation still early enough (read: during the backswing) so the downswing is a pure rotation. The amount of torques in joints (that are used to "turbo" the motion)generated in this scenario is unbelievable. Action-reaction
Cheers
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Darius, why is your head so far behind impact and your spine tilted right if you like a lean left swing? Id like to see an updated avatar.
Jon,
There are some significant differences between the baseball swing and the golf swing. The baseball swing requires adjustability--for lack of a better term. That is a hitter most read react and respond to the location and speed of a pitch, whereas a golfer does not. The golfer's task is daunting no doubt, but altogether different, and reaction to a moving object is not required.
In baseball most good hitters ride the back leg into impact. In fact good pitchers understand that the best way to handle a hitter is to get him to transfer his weight onto his lead leg too soon. Better baseball swings use the lower body working against the rearward arcing barrel of the bat...they (the barrel and the trailing thigh) work in opposing directions...this is the loading process...torque is built up at the handle...at a certain point the lower body overtakes the barrel and off it goes. The Japanese hitters really exemplify how this works...back legged hitting. The axis of rotation is around the trailing hip...the front side is used for stability. The work is done between the trailing thigh and the bat barrel..opposing forces...(the bat barrel arcing rearward the trailing thigh working forward)..the energy is converted\diverted to torque on the handle. Mandrin seems to suggest he has not played much baseball, so I'll accept his suggestion that using a heavy bat would likely require two legs for stability a very casual opinion. If a baseball player translates his axis of rotation from the rear leg to the front leg he'll be below the Mendoza line...ok for slow pitch softball if the keg is still flowing though.
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Mandrin,
I did this about 20 years ago....worked ok for the short irons but was very awkward (felt i was "wiping my ass on the grass" on the backswing) with the longer stuff..
Difference was that I kept the weight on the ball of the big toe of my left foot,so i had something to "jump" into....
However, i did learn that using it with the driver is a great way to keep the ball REALLY low into the wind, so all was not wasted....
I did this about 20 years ago....worked ok for the short irons but was very awkward (felt i was "wiping my ass on the grass" on the backswing) with the longer stuff..
Difference was that I kept the weight on the ball of the big toe of my left foot,so i had something to "jump" into....
However, i did learn that using it with the driver is a great way to keep the ball REALLY low into the wind, so all was not wasted....
Dariusz J.
New member
Kevin, why do you think I like a lean left swing ? I said only that I like to have the vertical axis of rotation established as soon as possible before the downswing begins. Post-secret Hogan did it excellently without a lean left swing.
Au contre it is - a lean left swing would require lateral motion in the downswing, not a pure rotation Mandrin and I speak about.
Cheers
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Are you saying that Ichiro is a back leg hitter? This is one of the hitting philosophies--"sit and spin".
I think his weight is forward after his stride, but keeps the hands back.
Hitting a pitched ball isn't that much about adjustability. It's more about predictability. Hitters predict where they think the ball will be in the hitting zone and swing there. This decision has to be made within the time period between when the pitcher releases the ball and when the ball is about half way to the hitting zone.
ATTN: Mandrin
I've been wondering about weight shift. If you move weight distally from the C7 (which I'm using as the center), don't you have to move weight distally from the center in the opposite direction to maintain balance?
I'm no science buff, but I've been trying to think about how things move in the swing with a careful consideration of physics. It seems like as the club gains inertial mass in the downswing, more weight has to be moved to the other side of C7 to maintain balance. I think people know that.
I'm curious about how "heavy" the club is at different points in the swing, and how that weight has to be handled in order to make a powerful, balanced swing.
I feel the term "balance" gets tossed around quite a bit, and that not much has been done to really probe into what makes for good balance.
I've been wondering about weight shift. If you move weight distally from the C7 (which I'm using as the center), don't you have to move weight distally from the center in the opposite direction to maintain balance?
I'm no science buff, but I've been trying to think about how things move in the swing with a careful consideration of physics. It seems like as the club gains inertial mass in the downswing, more weight has to be moved to the other side of C7 to maintain balance. I think people know that.
I'm curious about how "heavy" the club is at different points in the swing, and how that weight has to be handled in order to make a powerful, balanced swing.
I feel the term "balance" gets tossed around quite a bit, and that not much has been done to really probe into what makes for good balance.
mandrin
New
GPM1985
The body is an extraordinary complex machine which we take for granted since it seems so simple and automatic - any specific intention is instantaneously executed. But there are so many things going on it defies logic. Balance is something foremost felt from the inside and we are very lucky that we don't have to learn to keep balance when swinging a golf club, it is virtually automatic.
The mass being farthest from the vertical body axis of rotation is the clubhead. For a driver at impact when in line condition is reached the static club head mass of 0.2 kg is dynamically reaching about 30 kg for a pro like swing. Yet it lasts for such a short time interval that we hardly notice it.
Just hang on to your specific question about the dynamic mass of the club during all of the down swing. I will come back on it eventually in some future thread. But as a start you can have perhaps a peek at the thread on http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/7922-weight-shift.html.
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