Experimenter's delight

[greenfree]

I'm sure you guys remember Casey Martin. I believe his issues were with his right leg, and he was a longer than average hitter playing at a very high level.

Yes i do remember Casey, classy guy, that had to deal with a tough situation.

 

[mandrin]

I really appreciate the response! Suppose I'm assuming the reduced torques would be in the restricted ability of the golfer to use ground force through the use of only one leg to extend forward...then upward. The longest hitters of the ball literally jump off the ground (Brian's run up and jump analogy). The advantage isn't the same with just one leg.

My example of the principle would be the R knee straightening (to whatever degree is selected for the chosen shot) on the backswing, then flexing again to push into the ground to prepare for another extension coupled with the extension of the L knee. With all of the weight being forward as per your newest experiment this motion realistically can't happen limiting the leg muscle used. Also, the slowed or zeroed leg extension would slow the spine extension reducing more torques. Am I correct in assuming that this is not a factor in the pivot you are describing, or that you may feel this to be less important than some other torque that could be produced??? I'd really prefer to show some examples of the process being done poorly and efficiently, but I'm unable to post attachments.

I completely understand the long term chaos you described (it was also funny to imagine such study), but is it not fair to say that a double pendulum GOLF swing without a stable axis is less repeatable in the short term (from swing to swing) than the same motion with a stable axis??? Thanks again.

Clearwater,

Answering your questions makes me go down a slippery road as there are many who read without discernment. I am definitely not saying that if Tiger used one leg he would win all tournaments in which he participates. It should be clearly understood that this is just for those who like to fool around.

A long drive champion looks for anything to max his club head speed. He likely has to use ALL of his body optimally to get to such high club head speed. A pro has some leeway as he usually backs up a bit to gain in accuracy and consistency. An descent amateur, healthy and normal constitution, has considerable more freedom as to how he swings, being far from optimum.

It is therefore in the latter category one can swing in many different ways since the body is not used optimally. This is likely true for about 90 % + of all golfers. We are continuously tempted to discuss golf as if we were pros. We are not and our swings are not in the same league. What I am trying to say is that for the average amateur there are indeed multiple ways to skin a cat but way less the more you are looking for 350 yards down the middle.

Having said all of above to give some background, I do not feel much difference in the torque I produce with an one or two pivot swing. I did indeed experiment a bit with going down in backswing and raising up through impact and, also the other way around, raising up in backswing and going downwards in downswing. Two very different ways to seek a bit more of club head velocity. Tiger admits, as junior player, having used both approaches together, from the top down and through impact up.

For short shots it is easy to even make the main axis of rotation horizontal, instead of vertical, by a lateral balanced displacements of hip vs shoulders, resulting in a more vertical swing. Perhaps I am more balanced than most ? Nevertheless a fair amount of knee flex helps.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Baloney!

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[Clearwater]

That's what I'm talking about! Thanks Brian.

Mandrin,
Thanks for the initial opinion on your experiment. I promise not to ask about reducing double pendulum chaos again. Again, appreciate you sharing some knowledge.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Cute.

That's what I'm talking about! Thanks Brian.

Mandrin,
Thanks for the initial opinion on your experiment. I promise not to ask about reducing double pendulum chaos again. Again, appreciate you sharing some knowledge.

Nick,

The folks on tour that subscribe to a left leaning, non-shifting or forward shifting pivot, are doing exactly what when they are measured on a DBS machine?

(I have the numbers in front of me).

 

[Michael Finney]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg[/media]

 

[greenfree]

puttmad,

It just shows that in golf all that is interesting has been thought of or published somewhere.
All what we are doing is mainly reshuffling the cards.
Before Mr. X had many interesting ideas - who is pivoting on one leg for real, playing golf ?

BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | One-legged golfer tees off at St Andrews

There you go Mandrin. 2 for the price of one. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cob4AqDn16s[/media]

 

[greenfree]

Nick,

The folks on tour that subscribe to a left leaning, non-shifting or forward shifting pivot, are doing exactly what when they are measured on a DBS machine?

(I have the numbers in front of me).

Yes, but most have 2 legs right, so their going to use them to some degree, regardless of what they say. No one on tour is going to have a pure one pivot swing, left side or right side, period, if they have 2 good legs, why would you?

 

[greenfree]

To me it seems, since most people have 2 legs they are going to try and use them. How they use them is more important than how many they have. Even a one legged golfer can play well, if he can use the one leg properly.

 

[mandrin]

BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | One-legged golfer tees off at St Andrews

There you go Mandrin. 2 for the price of one. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cob4AqDn16s[/media]

greenfree,

Thanks, posting this very interesting video clip. Rather inspirational.
I should perhaps envision an international academy for one-legged golfers.

 

[greenfree]

greenfree,

Thanks, posting this very interesting video clip. Rather inspirational.
I should perhaps envision an international academy for one-legged golfers.

Your welcome.

 

[Ringer]

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Again, I point to a trebuchet.

However, the center of the clubface will always create more distance and accuracy than any other part of the clubface. It's almost all meaningless babble unless we develop a pattern that makes that happen.

 

[birdie_man]

Notice Sadlowski's hips obviously stopping from about :57 to 1:00...

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[golfbulldog]

Birdieman,

His hips stop after the ball has been hit - that is the incredible bit IMO.

this pro develops similar accumulator lag angles but pivot stalls before impact ( also has crazy hip slide before turn and seems to have a "stuck" look too):-

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qldOSqYdS6I[/media]

Back to the canadian ...I like the angle of view in the later stages of the video - he looks very Hogan...and by that I mean it looks like he did alot of things Hogan said to do...start the downswing with turn of the left hip...there is no significant hip slide....left hip looks like it gets pulled straight back from the top of the backswing like it were on bungee rope...also strong left hand grip and cupping of the left wrist well into the downswing...keeps the clubface on plane and massive accumulator lag.... Sadlowski's orthodoxy shows that when you scale up a good motion you get great results....Gary Player was always going on about "when the really big athletes get into golf..." Jamie is not tall but he must have alot of good muscle fibres but out there somewhere is the Usain Bolt of golf... long levers...ultra fast-twitching muscles... wow!!!

PS. I did a version without Kostis...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-qidwgCII[/media]

 

[dannyc]

PS. I did a version without Kostis...

thank god!

 

[birdie_man]

Birdieman,

His hips stop after the ball has been hit - that is the incredible bit IMO.

this pro develops similar accumulator lag angles but pivot stalls before impact ( also has crazy hip slide before turn and seems to have a "stuck" look too):-

That's true GBD...I wonder if it could have anything to due with his feet slipping?? (honestly do not know)

How does that Ellebye hit it? (couldn't find much bout him)

 

[golfbulldog]

How does that Ellebye hit it? (couldn't find much bout him)

That alone may tell the story ... I don't think he has any great record...he was playing practice round with Bubba and Kuchar and Hoffman i think... he was in the ballpark distancewise as I remember but seemed to be working harder to control everything...

just checked the distance stats for PGA tour:

Bubba 311
Hoffman 301
Kuchar 283

No stats for Ellebye but he went 77-84 at Turnberry this year ...MC
(He's Danish,by the way... Denmark is the bit sticking up on top of Germany B-man ....famous for bacon, Peter Schmeichel , vikings and funny danish girls in the train 2...not been to Denmark yet but friends say it has it's attractions...even for vegetarians who hate football and history...)

 

[Clearwater]

Nick,

The folks on tour that subscribe to a left leaning, non-shifting or forward shifting pivot, are doing exactly what when they are measured on a DBS machine?

(I have the numbers in front of me).

Hey pro,

Personally, I have been on DBS for a minimal amount of time. It is an interesting machine, and would enjoy working on it in greater detail. So, this is just my personal interpretation.

When I made a swing and moved the central axis of my hips 5 inches forward the DBS measured my COG as moving to the right. Therefore, I know that the motion of my hips is NOT what the machine measures. It seems to make more sense that what is interpreted is an axis closer to the sternum. My weight does NOT shift to the right, but the backswing profile on DBS demonstrates that my motion went away from the target. You probably have the numbers for Grant Waite and Charlie Wi...there DBS backswing profiles are similar to mine.

I'm confident you think this is wrong. I would like to hear your interpretation of the machine as well if you get an opportunity.

The cricket noise post 2 hours after the question posted sure was funny. Some good information around here, but the comedy might need some work.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Moot point.

When I made a swing and moved the central axis of my hips 5 inches forward the DBS measured my COG as moving to the right. Therefore, I know that the motion of my hips is NOT what the machine measures.

I will have the head of the company answer that one.

The DBS is suposed to measure the movement of the body'd CoG.

The cricket noise post 2 hours after the question posted sure was funny. Some good information around here, but the comedy might need some work.

The comedy is fine.

You need to come to a GTE and see some real teaching.

 

[Clearwater]

I will have the head of the company answer that one.

The DBS is suposed to measure the movement of the body'd CoG.


You need to come to a GTE and see some real teaching.

You don't want to share your opinion???

I understand it is supposed to measure the COG. Just seems that the axis being measured may be closer to the sternum. Just an observation. It would be great to hear the head of the company answer it as well. I'd still like to hear your expertise if you are willing to share.

I will make it to one of your GTEs so I can see some real teaching.