Experimenter's delight

[mandrin]

Mandrin,
I use a pattern with pivot similar to the one you're describing. Interestingly I arrived at it some time ago based largely upon your previous posts.

It was my perception that your experiments suggested the application of torque to the handle at transition in a sort of spend\launch fashion would be optimal.

tobell,

Are you perhaps referring to the movement, which, while similar the squatting, is much crisper, the 'sitz' move as described by the old timer Joe Norwood ?

 

[Ringer]

Add wheels to the bottom of a trebuchet and you increase both speed and disance of the projectile.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yeah, but....

Slicer McGolf,

That is true in general for any system rotating. You keep things close to the axis of rotation to reduce the moment of inertia. Thus allowing for a given torque to obtain more angular velocity. This the rational for the late hit.

If you keep a very tight short crisp swing, taut muscles throughout, you can obtain quite descent clubhead speed in part because you maintain a small mass moment of inertia and by producing more efficient proximal to distal energy flow.

I asked Dr. Zick if the increase in speed of "keeping the arms, hands, and club in close with increased trigger delay—to get more angular acceleration—was more important for clubhead speed than applying force across the shaft when the club was vertical pre impact (which would move that close-in power package more out, therefore reducing angular velocity)...

He said:

No.

Unequivocally, No.

The increase in speed from the proper FATS FAR FAR FAR outweighed the decrease in angular velocity from this application of force.

I know people.

 

[Brian Manzella]

There are some significant differences between the baseball swing and the golf swing...still flowing though.

Baloney!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Add wheels to the bottom of a trebuchet and you increase both speed and disance of the projectile.

Hmmm....

Interesting Ringer.

 

[mandrin]

I asked Dr. Zick if the increase in speed of "keeping the arms, hands, and club in close with increased trigger delay—to get more angular acceleration—was more important for clubhead speed than applying force across the shaft when the club was vertical pre impact (which would move that close-in power package more out, therefore reducing angular velocity)...

He said:

No.

Unequivocally, No.

The increase in speed from the proper FATS FAR FAR FAR outweighed the decrease in angular velocity from this application of force.

I know people.

Brian,

Will be back monday.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian,

Will be back monday.

"See" you then old friend.

 

[Ringer]

Hmmm....

Interesting Ringer.

Yes... I'll extract this directly from Wikipedia...

A floating arm trebuchet is a modern variant of a trebuchet. The main difference is that rather than having an axle fixed to the frame, the axle is mounted on wheels that roll on a track parallel to the ground. This results in the counterweight moving in a direct path downwards upon the release, which increases the energy transferred to the projectile, making it more efficient. More often, the counterweight is actually constrained to fall vertically by forcing it to fall in a vertical slot, thus ensuring that there is no to-and-fro movement of it during any part of the throw.

Not sure this wholy applies because it's reguarding the axle and not the frame itself on wheels. Although I know there is something to the frame also being on wheels which makes the energy transfer more efficient. I believe the effect is still the same whether the wheels are on the bottom or part of the axle. I'll have to look more into this distinction.

 

[Ringer]

Here we go... Thank you PBS.

NOVA Online | Secrets of Lost Empires | Medieval Siege | Wheels

 

[Kevin Shields]

I asked Dr. Zick if the increase in speed of "keeping the arms, hands, and club in close with increased trigger delay—to get more angular acceleration—was more important for clubhead speed than applying force across the shaft when the club was vertical pre impact (which would move that close-in power package more out, therefore reducing angular velocity)...

He said:

No.

Unequivocally, No.

The increase in speed from the proper FATS FAR FAR FAR outweighed the decrease in angular velocity from this application of force.

I know people.

Damn straight. Great post.

 

[Slicer McGolf]

I asked Dr. Zick if the increase in speed of "keeping the arms, hands, and club in close with increased trigger delay—to get more angular acceleration—was more important for clubhead speed than applying force across the shaft when the club was vertical pre impact (which would move that close-in power package more out, therefore reducing angular velocity)...

He said:

No.

Unequivocally, No.

The increase in speed from the proper FATS FAR FAR FAR outweighed the decrease in angular velocity from this application of force.

I know people.

What were his reasons and what do you mean by FATS?

 

[vjsinger]

Force across the shaft=FATS

 

[Slicer McGolf]

Force across the shaft=FATS

Thank you VJ.

Wouldn't the most efficient force across the shaft come from biomechanics, which would be a result of the position and movements of the hands and arms (or more specifically, hand path) ?

 

[spktho]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. But, to me force across the shaft or any shaft that is being swung can occur on any path or plane. For a right handed golf swing, most of the force comes from the right arm going from a flexed elbow to an extended position coupled with an abduction of the right gleno-humeral joint and adduction of the left gleno-humeral joint powered with a rotary motion of the thoracic spine while right lateral bending occurs from the thoracic through lumbar spine. The lumbar vertebrae, due their facet orientation, have only about 4* lateral bending capability, so in order to laterally bend to the right each lumbar segment needs to also rotate to the left (the spinous processes with move to the right, the vertebral bodies will twist to the left)which will allow approximately 35-40* of overall lateral bending possible in the normal population. In addition, the left forearm is supinating and the right forearm is pronating toward the impact position. There are many more components and muscles involved in the biomechanics of the golf swing that can be described. As you probably know the precise angles and sequencing of these movements are the "nuts and bolts" for the instructor to sort out for their students or for the golfer to figure out on their own.

I think Dr. Zick and Brian mean that the increased trigger delay does not increase club head speed more than using less trigger delay with a good amount of force across the shaft.

 

[birdie_man]

No doubt there is something about Hogan that "looks different."

No doubt it has to do with his lower body. (below the waist)

What exactly he does and how he does it I don't know.

Start with weight on left side?

Move it there sometime during the swing?

Moved there as a result of some other kind of move/intention?

Dunno.

Good topic though.

Good to "see" (as Brian says) you around mandrin.

 

[tobell]

Baloney!

Baloney!

I like mine with mustard on rye.

My statement about the baseball swing being significantly different than the golf swing is spot on! The swings are different because the demands of each sport are different.

Back in 1979 as a member of my high school golf team I had the opportunity to fore-caddy in a local 1 day event. My foursome was Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio, Mac McLendon, and the local King of Budweiser. I rode on the back of Willie and Joe's cart and asked stupid questions that annoyed Joe but amused Willie. As you may recall Mac was a decent tour player, but his love was baseball. I believe he turned to golf when baseball didn't work out. Mac shot 71, Joe and Willie spent most of the day with their balls in pocket. Mac found he had an aptitude for golf....Willie and Joe most certainly had one for hitting a moving ball..but neither could hit that still white ball a lick.

Usually the best ex baseball playing golfers are pitchers. There are exceptions..Johnny Bench...Mike Schmidt..but on the whole pitchers are usually the best golfers...not the hitters. Their swings don't translate well from baseball to golf. I believe there are many, even countless reasons for this...but one of the most obvious is that the act of pitching requires a developed sense of feel and touch that crosses over well into the world of golf.

 

[Ringer]

No doubt there is something about Hogan that "looks different."

No doubt it has to do with his lower body. (below the waist)

What exactly he does and how he does it I don't know.

Start with weight on left side?

Move it there sometime during the swing?

Moved there as a result of some other kind of move/intention?

Dunno.

Good topic though.

Good to "see" (as Brian says) you around mandrin.

My observation about Hogan is that he was much flatter. A flatter plane seems to rely on lower body torque. I haven't really developed this idea so I could very well be wayyyy off, but it is something I've observed.

 

[TYORKE1]

excellant post,

Here are a few SCIENTIFIC elements that need to be taken into account on power production...ie increase MPH of clubhead speed:

1. Pivot Rotational Velocity

2. Kinetic Chain "Snap"

3. Multi-Segment Levers usage

4. Arm Speed

5. Wrist Speed

So...

Even though, for example, Lindsay Gahm has a sweep release, she may have pretty high pivot rotational speed, and great Kinetic "Snapping."

For her, increased trigger delay (multi-segment lever usage) might slow her clubhead speed down, because it slows down her pivot or rounds off her snap.

A golfer hanging on their left leg, may have a slower rotational speed of the torso, but a better snap. Or more trigger delay because they are trying not to break the driver shaft in half pre-impact.

That's why I teach the way I do.

I have gofers with next to zero movement off the left leg on the backswing, and golfers with plenty.

Whatever works for the golfer.

The "Happy Gilmore" produces tremendously more "run up" speed that can be converted into pivot speed and kinetic snap for the athletic golfer.

But it might slow some folks down.

Baseball players LIFT their left foot, not so much to "shift their weight" to the right—which they do as well, but to take the weight OFF the left foot so they have a place to RUN UP to, before converting all that into rotational speed.

 

[cmartingolf]

Baseball players LIFT their left foot, not so much to "shift their weight" to the right—which they do as well, but to take the weight OFF the left foot so they have a place to RUN UP to, before converting all that into rotational speed.

...and we have a winner.

You can put more pressure into the ground immediately after the moment you weren't touching it. Same reason I need to take a few steps prior to dunking a basketball (I wish) That's a "weight shift" too.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I can see it now...

Three easy payments of $29.99....No wait "No Run up DUNK" DVDs for only $19.95 RISK FREE for 30 Days + FREE S&H!

And it'll be $100 in the end.

Oh, I'm sorry, he does use a run up.

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