Experimenter's delight

[ej20]

On another site I ran across a post mentioning yet another book about Hogan's secret, seemingly it being on his left feet at the top. For fun I started to experiment with virtually all the weight over the heel of the left heel at address, and keeping it there, only using the right foot, close by, to maintain stability.

I started with just swinging and measuring club head speed without using a ball. Rather surprised to find that with, what felt like the same effort, I got a bit more club head speed with this one pivot swing than with a standard two pivot swing.

I went twice to the range just before it closed for the season and found it to be very doable. In effect I liked it very much. It is fun, using a driver, pure rotation, no weight shift, arms/club up and down, to see the ball still fly straight and on line.

Hence the swing is reduced to a rotation around a vertical axis through the left heel and an up and down motion for the arms and club. Left foot flared out, considerable lead knee flex. One starts to wonder a bit about weight shift.

Interesting you got more clubhead speed.Was it merely a placebo effect or is it still working?

This method was supposed to move low point forward to help hackers hit down on the ball and for better players to get a more consistent low point.I think it has been reasonably successful with the former but the jury is still out on the latter.It was never designed to get more clubhead speed.

Badds has gone back to his childhood coach and swing,dropped S&T and picked up 30 yards.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Interesting you got more clubhead speed.Was it merely a placebo effect or is it still working?

This method was supposed to move low point forward to help hackers hit down on the ball and for better players to get a more consistent low point.I think it has been reasonably successful with the former but the jury is still out on the latter.It was never designed to get more clubhead speed.

Badds has gone back to his childhood coach and swing,dropped S&T and picked up 30 yards.

One would start to wonder about the skill level of the experimenter if you get more clubhead speed with the weight on the left foot. Ive certainly put some pretty spastic players on their left side to help them out.

 

[KOC]

"a post mentioning yet another book about Hogan's secret"

ARe you talking about the book with "missing piece" that in fact Brian also mentioned in the Softdraw video?

 

[tobell]

Yes Sir!

tobell,

Are you perhaps referring to the movement, which, while similar the squatting, is much crisper, the 'sitz' move as described by the old timer Joe Norwood ?

The very same.

 

[tobell]

Load, Ride, Launch

Are you saying that Ichiro is a back leg hitter? This is one of the hitting philosophies--"sit and spin".

I think his weight is forward after his stride, but keeps the hands back.

Hitting a pitched ball isn't that much about adjustability. It's more about predictability. Hitters predict where they think the ball will be in the hitting zone and swing there. This decision has to be made within the time period between when the pitcher releases the ball and when the ball is about half way to the hitting zone.

No not "sit and spin" more like Load, Ride\Read, Launch\Spend. The hitter uses his arms to arc the barrel rearward while dynamically opposing that force in his trailing thigh--Load, the hitter begins this action while the pitcher is in his motion...Ride, the hitter's load is rapidly approaching launch as the pitcher has released the ball and the hitter is Riding his back hip while Reading the Pitch...if it's a go...the hitter adds the last bit of drive from the trailing thigh overtaking the resistance of the rearward arcing barrel and Launches\Spends his energy through the bat. A tug of war between bat barrel and thigh..won by the thigh resulting in a rapidly moving barrel.

Another very significant difference between the baseball swing and golf swing can be seen in the elbows. A golfer can lead the club into impact with his trailing elbow..ala Hogan..or TGM "pitch elbow"....if a batter were to do this he would have some serious bat drag...and could never square the barrel. Note the wide elbow spread of MLB hitters. Swing a bat and consciously lead with your trail elbow--where is the barrel??--dragging behind. Batting requires far more quickness and sudden reflex than does golf. Now you can swing a bat like a golf club if you're playing slow pitch softball in the beer leagues...but we won't see any of that tonight from Yankee Stadium.

Bats versus Clubs-- different sweet spot locations...different cogs...apples and oranges...and that's no "baloney!"

Go Phillies!

 

[birdie_man]

My observation about Hogan is that he was much flatter. A flatter plane seems to rely on lower body torque. I haven't really developed this idea so I could very well be wayyyy off, but it is something I've observed.

Yes it is also plain to see that the armswing is different. (that is to say that not only his lower body looks quite apparently different) Thanks for that Ringer as it should be noted.

Brian has said before he had a shortish backswing with lots of wristcock...I presume this did at least contribute.

 

[mandrin]

Interesting you got more clubhead speed.Was it merely a placebo effect or is it still working?

This method was supposed to move low point forward to help hackers hit down on the ball and for better players to get a more consistent low point.I think it has been reasonably successful with the former but the jury is still out on the latter.It was never designed to get more clubhead speed.

Badds has gone back to his childhood coach and swing,dropped S&T and picked up 30 yards.

ej20,

I mentioned in another post that the season is finished and just put in two range sessions experimenting. But I will definitely pursue next season. It is just too much fun. I am very much aware of the placebo effect having experienced it often but don't expect it to be the case this time.

I am not aware of golf instruction methods purposely teaching full swings keeping virtually all the weight on the front foot. It is perhaps done for small shots around the green and for putting. It is surprising and counter intuitive how stable one is pivoting on the lead foot with the trail foot just used as an anchor for stability and producing some additional torque.

 

[Clearwater]

Interesting you got more clubhead speed.Was it merely a placebo effect or is it still working?

This method was supposed to move low point forward to help hackers hit down on the ball and for better players to get a more consistent low point.I think it has been reasonably successful with the former but the jury is still out on the latter.It was never designed to get more clubhead speed.

Badds has gone back to his childhood coach and swing,dropped S&T and picked up 30 yards.

Suhweet fact checking with the Badds stats there....not even close to reality.

 

[Clearwater]

ej20,

I mentioned in another post that the season is finished and just put in two range sessions experimenting. But I will definitely pursue next season. It is just too much fun. I am very much aware of the placebo effect having experienced it often but don't expect it to be the case this time.

I am not aware of golf instruction methods purposely teaching full swings keeping virtually all the weight on the front foot. It is perhaps done for small shots around the green and for putting. It is surprising and counter intuitive how stable one is pivoting on the lead foot with the trail foot just used as an anchor for stability and producing some additional torque.

Mandrin,
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS enjoy reading your posts! Real science is very interesting!

Do you feel as though the pivot you are describing would limit the muscles in the back, thighs, and legs??? Seems that the pivot you are describing would inhibit the ability of the golfer to provide enough force and torque into the left arm.

If it is understood that the golf swing is a double pendulum motion (which will always be chaotic), is it fair to state that you are discussing the motion revolving around a fixed axis point for the purpose of less chaos???

My apologies to anyone who finds this boring. Just trying to see why this may be beneficial.

 

[puttmad]

....

ej20,


I am not aware of golf instruction methods purposely teaching full swings keeping virtually all the weight on the front foot.

There is in fact Mandrin, and it has been around for at least 20 years..It used to be advertised on a regular basis in the two big UK Golf magazines (before the internet)....
Don't buy mags anymore so don't know where it is now...

 

[ej20]

Suhweet fact checking with the Badds stats there....not even close to reality.

I didn't just pull it out of my a$$...Badds says he's hitting it much longer now in this article.

Baddeley's old swing doctor takes him back to the future - Golf - Sport

 

[Clearwater]

Great journalism there. His driving distance stats tell a different story.

2008-290.3
2009-287.8

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

I asked Dr. Zick if the increase in speed of "keeping the arms, hands, and club in close with increased trigger delay—to get more angular acceleration—was more important for clubhead speed than applying force across the shaft when the club was vertical pre impact (which would move that close-in power package more out, therefore reducing angular velocity)...

He said:

No.

Unequivocally, No.

The increase in speed from the proper FATS FAR FAR FAR outweighed the decrease in angular velocity from this application of force.

I know people.

Would more trigger delay force you to apply more FATS to get where you need to at impact and as a consequence generate more speed in the clubhead?

 

[ej20]

Great journalism there. His driving distance stats tell a different story.

2008-290.3
2009-287.8

Stats don't always tell the entire story but ok,lets assume that article was pure journalistic fabrication and Badds is indeed hitting it shorter after S&T.

But was the method designed for more clubhead speed and if so,how?Perhaps we need to get back on topic as Mandrin says he's getting greater clubhead speed.

 

[Clearwater]

Stats don't always tell the entire story but ok,lets assume that article was pure journalistic fabrication and Badds is indeed hitting it shorter after S&T.

But was the method designed for more clubhead speed and if so,how?Perhaps we need to get back on topic as Mandrin says he's getting greater clubhead speed.

On topic for sure...

Yes is the answer to the above question. This is not my forum or thread to explain S&T. Hopefully, we can get answers from Mandrin on some of the most recent questions.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS enjoy reading your posts! Real science is very interesting!

Do you feel as though the pivot you are describing would limit the muscles in the back, thighs, and legs??? Seems that the pivot you are describing would inhibit the ability of the golfer to provide enough force and torque into the left arm.

If it is understood that the golf swing is a double pendulum motion (which will always be chaotic), is it fair to state that you are discussing the motion revolving around a fixed axis point for the purpose of less chaos???

My apologies to anyone who finds this boring. Just trying to see why this may be beneficial.

Clearwater

Just compare it to golfers who, as the first move at the transition, shift immediately their weight onto their front feet This being the idea of a two pivot swing, one for the back swing and one for the downswing. Basically what I did is simply eliminating the lateral weight shift and having an one pivot swing throughout. Hence a simpler swing and I sense a more fluid motion going on.


The double pendulum is indeed a fascinating simple tool for scientists to study chaos but it is a long term behavior. This is definitely not the case for a golfer. If a golfer kept swinging to and fro for a fairly long time before hitting the ball he might get chaotic and hit eventually his partner instead of the ball and hence being a rather difficult subject of study considering the risks involved for those being close.

 

[mandrin]

There is in fact Mandrin, and it has been around for at least 20 years..It used to be advertised on a regular basis in the two big UK Golf magazines (before the internet)....
Don't buy mags anymore so don't know where it is now...

puttmad,

It just shows that in golf all that is interesting has been thought of or published somewhere.
All what we are doing is mainly reshuffling the cards.
Before Mr. X had many interesting ideas - who is pivoting on one leg for real, playing golf ?

 

[Clearwater]

Clearwater

Just compare it to golfers who, as the first move at the transition, shift immediately their weight onto their front feet This being the idea of a two pivot swing, one for the back swing and one for the downswing. Basically what I did is simply eliminating the lateral weight shift and having an one pivot swing throughout. Hence a simpler swing and I sense a more fluid motion going on.


The double pendulum is indeed a fascinating simple tool for scientists to study chaos but it is a long term behavior. This is definitely not the case for a golfer. If a golfer kept swinging to and fro for a fairly long time before hitting the ball he might get chaotic and hit eventually his partner instead of the ball and hence being a rather difficult subject of study considering the risks involved for those being close.

I really appreciate the response! Suppose I'm assuming the reduced torques would be in the restricted ability of the golfer to use ground force through the use of only one leg to extend forward...then upward. The longest hitters of the ball literally jump off the ground (Brian's run up and jump analogy). The advantage isn't the same with just one leg.

My example of the principle would be the R knee straightening (to whatever degree is selected for the chosen shot) on the backswing, then flexing again to push into the ground to prepare for another extension coupled with the extension of the L knee. With all of the weight being forward as per your newest experiment this motion realistically can't happen limiting the leg muscle used. Also, the slowed or zeroed leg extension would slow the spine extension reducing more torques. Am I correct in assuming that this is not a factor in the pivot you are describing, or that you may feel this to be less important than some other torque that could be produced??? I'd really prefer to show some examples of the process being done poorly and efficiently, but I'm unable to post attachments.

I completely understand the long term chaos you described (it was also funny to imagine such study), but is it not fair to say that a double pendulum GOLF swing without a stable axis is less repeatable in the short term (from swing to swing) than the same motion with a stable axis??? Thanks again.

 

[greenfree]

puttmad,

It just shows that in golf all that is interesting has been thought of or published somewhere.
All what we are doing is mainly reshuffling the cards.
Before Mr. X had many interesting ideas - who is pivoting on one leg for real, playing golf ?

A one legged man.

 

[tobell]

A one legged man.

I'm sure you guys remember Casey Martin. I believe his issues were with his right leg, and he was a longer than average hitter playing at a very high level.