Hands too far forward?
- Thread starter Redgoat
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
OK Brady...you asked for it....
The reason you don't 'see' my pitching technique on tour is because there are NO courses that you can use it.
The greens are hard and fast and when I was with David in New Orleans two weeks ago, he just hits this little tour-slip-it-under pitch with lots of arms and a mid-sole impact at the farthest forward. A shot that is of almost ZERO value when teaching average golfers who need to learn to trap it better.
Now, if the tour played St. Andrews every week then you would see it alot from thise who know how to "do it like Brian" because that works better for a couple of skip and stop shot on greens that aren't that firm/fast.
If It pleases you, I will post a little pitch just like the "Tour Players Do It", no problem. The reson I posted the one I did is because the masses need to learn how to COMPRESS the ball better, not AVOID compressing it for soft landing.
Now as far as Max Trigger Delay...You can show someone HOW to do it, but the being able to part is really from golfer to golfer, either you have it or you don't.
When I teach David Toms, who has a random release BUT DOES HAVE A PERFECTLY FLAT LEFT WRIST AT IMPACT, I am nearly always working on his plane LINE and clubface, cause at that level, that's all they need.
....but....Hackers???...come on....
The reason you don't 'see' my pitching technique on tour is because there are NO courses that you can use it.
The greens are hard and fast and when I was with David in New Orleans two weeks ago, he just hits this little tour-slip-it-under pitch with lots of arms and a mid-sole impact at the farthest forward. A shot that is of almost ZERO value when teaching average golfers who need to learn to trap it better.
Now, if the tour played St. Andrews every week then you would see it alot from thise who know how to "do it like Brian" because that works better for a couple of skip and stop shot on greens that aren't that firm/fast.
If It pleases you, I will post a little pitch just like the "Tour Players Do It", no problem. The reson I posted the one I did is because the masses need to learn how to COMPRESS the ball better, not AVOID compressing it for soft landing.
Now as far as Max Trigger Delay...You can show someone HOW to do it, but the being able to part is really from golfer to golfer, either you have it or you don't.
When I teach David Toms, who has a random release BUT DOES HAVE A PERFECTLY FLAT LEFT WRIST AT IMPACT, I am nearly always working on his plane LINE and clubface, cause at that level, that's all they need.
....but....Hackers???...come on....
Brian Manzella
Administrator
...update...
I filmed a little 'tour-like-pitch' in the grass by my apartment in Louisville. Brady, you'll love it....it 'looks like' what you see on Tour.
...But I'll stick with teaching average golfers and Developing plyers to MASH IT.
...I'll post it tommorrow...my laptop's power plug needs repair...;(
I filmed a little 'tour-like-pitch' in the grass by my apartment in Louisville. Brady, you'll love it....it 'looks like' what you see on Tour.
...But I'll stick with teaching average golfers and Developing plyers to MASH IT.
...I'll post it tommorrow...my laptop's power plug needs repair...;(
I think you're referring to a "geometric flat left wrist" - it's bent at impact yet everything reacts as if it was flat. Bent left wrist at fix, at top, at impact, at followthrough...if the clubhead doesn't pass the hands, it is technically "okay."
It's absolutely inferior to a REAL flat left wrist - one that is F/L/V at impact. Trying to play good golf without a flat left wrist is like playing with fire - sure, technically it can be done (geometric flat left wrist), but why would you want to?
Only legitimate application is possibly putting.
Redgoat
New
Brian,
I feel honored that you would film something especially for me.
Look, I have no doubt whatsoever that you can hit any type of pitch shot you want.
Your desire is for people to mash it and mine is for them to control the face and the path. There are definately positives to both.
It has been my experience (keep in mind I worked many hours with Ben and Gregg) that executing a chip, pitch, punch with maximum delay and hands way forward has definate pitfalls. These include insertional tendenitis in the left wrist/hand, incredibly bad lower back and hip pain, way too steep an angle of attack, a range superintendent that wants to tar and feather you, and a total inability to hit the driver.
I have seen this many times and experienced it personally.
I will also tell you that Ben and Gregg are incredibly generous and professional people who I deeply respect.
Finally, the reason I posted this in the first place was to challenge those out there who choose to follow this road to "look, look, look" at what is happening on tour and with the best players at your local club. Do they have maximum trigger delay with their hands way forward, some do, but not all. Information is power and I am doing my best to provide pictures to challenge us all.
As always Brian, this has been fun,
Redgoat
I feel honored that you would film something especially for me.
Look, I have no doubt whatsoever that you can hit any type of pitch shot you want.
Your desire is for people to mash it and mine is for them to control the face and the path. There are definately positives to both.
It has been my experience (keep in mind I worked many hours with Ben and Gregg) that executing a chip, pitch, punch with maximum delay and hands way forward has definate pitfalls. These include insertional tendenitis in the left wrist/hand, incredibly bad lower back and hip pain, way too steep an angle of attack, a range superintendent that wants to tar and feather you, and a total inability to hit the driver.
I have seen this many times and experienced it personally.
I will also tell you that Ben and Gregg are incredibly generous and professional people who I deeply respect.
Finally, the reason I posted this in the first place was to challenge those out there who choose to follow this road to "look, look, look" at what is happening on tour and with the best players at your local club. Do they have maximum trigger delay with their hands way forward, some do, but not all. Information is power and I am doing my best to provide pictures to challenge us all.
As always Brian, this has been fun,
Redgoat
Brian Manzella
Administrator
yup.
Redgoat:
"...empirical knowledge is worse than useless." Ben Doyle in the Foreword to The Golfing Machine.
Have you heard the story of the pilot who parachutes into France in the war into a farmer's field. The farmer, who has flaming red hair comes out to see what all the commotion is about. He greets the pilot who excuses himself and records in his journal, "This is my first visit to France and I notice that Frenchmen have red hair."
This is not to downgrade empirical knowledge totally but rather to balance it appropriately. You speak of bad backs but my guess is that if you were to go to go to any doctor, physiotherapist, or chiropractor's office and interview all the golfers there with bad backs you wouldn't find too many there who were familiar with the concept of maximum trigger delay let alone be able to demonstrate it on a low-driven spinning pitch shot. I would think that their injuries derive much more often from ungolflike , convulsive, throwaway motions than smooth , longitudinal, trapping actions.
As far as whether you see Brian's demonstrated pitch shot on tour or not I am reminded of my first teacher's description of watching George Knudson play for the first time. Knudson hit a low spinning wedge in to the green that the teacher said didn't get any higher than his head. He thought Knudson had skulled it until he saw it check and then saw him demonstrate the same shot on a later hole. Only then did he realize just how good George Knudson was and why George was on tour and how many phenomenal shots he could hit.
Question. A lady comes to you and your job is to give her more distance. She bops six balls out there straight but hardly out of her shadow. You film her and see that she makes a good turn, she keeps her hands in front, has a flat left wrist and she makes good contact but the ball goes nowhere relative to her strength. You also notice on the tape that she has a huge pulley system. Where do you go with this? It seems to me that C.O.A.M. has to play a role in here and a smaller pulley system is the ticket to create more surface speed. Figure skaters simply can't rotate as often with their arms stuck out as they can when they pack them to their chests. The principle applies equally to G.O.L.F., baseball batting, or planetary motion. The question becomes can people develop Lag and small pulley systems and be better players. After 26 years of teaching I still believe the answer is undoubtedly yes. These are just a few of my thoughts to give a somewhat different perspective.
P.S. Many thanks for all your efforts in posting so many swings for us to study. This takes a lot of effort on your part and is greatly appreciated as a resource tool.
P.S.2 I see no reason why a person with maximum trigger delay should come in too steep if they have the appropriate axis tilt and plane angle shift.
P.S.3 Check out the trigger delay of Hogan and Moe Norman.
P.S.4 Check out Sergio"s stats since he started monkeying with his swing. Pre-changes: 2001 1st in Total Driving, 6th in Money
2002 4th in Total Driving, 12th in Money
3 Tour Victories
Post-whatever he's trying to do:
2003 89th in Total Driving, 95th in Money
0 Tour Victories
"...empirical knowledge is worse than useless." Ben Doyle in the Foreword to The Golfing Machine.
Have you heard the story of the pilot who parachutes into France in the war into a farmer's field. The farmer, who has flaming red hair comes out to see what all the commotion is about. He greets the pilot who excuses himself and records in his journal, "This is my first visit to France and I notice that Frenchmen have red hair."
This is not to downgrade empirical knowledge totally but rather to balance it appropriately. You speak of bad backs but my guess is that if you were to go to go to any doctor, physiotherapist, or chiropractor's office and interview all the golfers there with bad backs you wouldn't find too many there who were familiar with the concept of maximum trigger delay let alone be able to demonstrate it on a low-driven spinning pitch shot. I would think that their injuries derive much more often from ungolflike , convulsive, throwaway motions than smooth , longitudinal, trapping actions.
As far as whether you see Brian's demonstrated pitch shot on tour or not I am reminded of my first teacher's description of watching George Knudson play for the first time. Knudson hit a low spinning wedge in to the green that the teacher said didn't get any higher than his head. He thought Knudson had skulled it until he saw it check and then saw him demonstrate the same shot on a later hole. Only then did he realize just how good George Knudson was and why George was on tour and how many phenomenal shots he could hit.
Question. A lady comes to you and your job is to give her more distance. She bops six balls out there straight but hardly out of her shadow. You film her and see that she makes a good turn, she keeps her hands in front, has a flat left wrist and she makes good contact but the ball goes nowhere relative to her strength. You also notice on the tape that she has a huge pulley system. Where do you go with this? It seems to me that C.O.A.M. has to play a role in here and a smaller pulley system is the ticket to create more surface speed. Figure skaters simply can't rotate as often with their arms stuck out as they can when they pack them to their chests. The principle applies equally to G.O.L.F., baseball batting, or planetary motion. The question becomes can people develop Lag and small pulley systems and be better players. After 26 years of teaching I still believe the answer is undoubtedly yes. These are just a few of my thoughts to give a somewhat different perspective.
P.S. Many thanks for all your efforts in posting so many swings for us to study. This takes a lot of effort on your part and is greatly appreciated as a resource tool.
P.S.2 I see no reason why a person with maximum trigger delay should come in too steep if they have the appropriate axis tilt and plane angle shift.
P.S.3 Check out the trigger delay of Hogan and Moe Norman.
P.S.4 Check out Sergio"s stats since he started monkeying with his swing. Pre-changes: 2001 1st in Total Driving, 6th in Money
2002 4th in Total Driving, 12th in Money
3 Tour Victories
Post-whatever he's trying to do:
2003 89th in Total Driving, 95th in Money
0 Tour Victories
FanofHogan
New
Coming from an engineering background, I'd most certainly have to agree with you Pixie.
drewitgolf
New
ppt3 good point!!!!!!
Empirical-relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory (Webster's).
Empirical-relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory (Webster's).
With all due respect I think you two are missing Ben's, or my point or possibly I didn't make the point very well. Empirical knowledge without any scientific underpinning or proof of its validity is worse than useless. At least I want my bridges that I drive over built in a scientifically sound manner by qualified people rather than by a guy who says, "Heck I could probably build one of them durned things too. I watched "The Bridge on The River Kwai" and I think I know how they did it."
Brian Manzella
Administrator
quote:Originally posted by pixie
Redgoat 1 Brian 0
What?
Don't know about Goosen, but Faxon is one of the best athletes I've ever seen with any type of racquet or bat. The first time we took him on a tennis court in college, he started hitting Ivan Lendl type power forehands! Faxon was a good ball striker in college until he met Leadbetter. From then on, his swing has been shaky, but his athleticism (not just putting) has enabled to last 20 years on tour. Not bad...
Archie Swivel
New
You obviously have more personal knowledge about Faxon than I. But I still think Goosen would win hands down in an arm wrestle.
ArchMan
ArchMan
Maybe arm westling, but Goosen wouldn't stand a chance in a sport like racquetball or even a bat & ball sport. I'm telling you, Faxon is a great athlete. He's not big or bulky, but has amazing hand/eye ability. He once finished second in a state racquetball tournament in college and hadn't played in months!
Archie Swivel
New
McClare,
How 'bout shot put?
Arch
How 'bout shot put?
Arch
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