It's Math Anyway (with a Brian Manzella video)

[TeeAce]

Too funny! I remember a guy in Orange County California that did that. (I'm sure he's not the only one) Had numerous lessons before the student would even get to hit the ball. Don't believe he had much success.

Was his name David Leadbetter? At least he got that philosophy to start with the body movements. I do the same.

And really no success at all. Only this kind of things and believe. You see him hitting his first ball ever in this clip.

http://teeace.kapsi.fi/kurssilainen160511.mov

 

[TeeAce]

For a beginner the movements are very important and you could just focus on movement, but we've never talked about Trackman for beginners. There has to be some level of competency assumed in any discussion about golf. Beginners don't need Trackman but I'm sure it could help.

So you decided what we were talking about? Can you tell that for me too? What level of players we are talking about?

What you would say to player if you take 10 shots to TM and they are between 4 in to 4 out and AoA -3 to +4 and 10 mph variation in chs. Give me your report and what you gonna do without going to his body movements. How you gonna teach her?

 

[dschultz6072]

Fix their setup then tell them quit steering and just swing the damn clubhead and go from there. If that doesn't work, just start going into lesson mode. That's how it went for me when I tried to get fitted a few months after I started playing, and that's how I would do it as well. Nobody explained to me how the grip should be "torqued", however. This is something that I would absolutely explain how and why. Swinging the handle...HAH.

 

[mjstrong]

I'll have a crack at it then...

175yard carry, flies higher than average for the 35* loft, blade, ch speed 90mph, not big banana hook, more of a gradual curve.

I'd happily settle for 3 possibilities.

I'm only doing 1:

Clubhead Speed: 90mph
Vertical Plane: 63.0°
Horizontal Plane: 8.5°R
Vertical Path/Angle of Attack: -1.0°
Horizontal (resultant) Path: 8.0°R
Vertical Face/Dynamic Loft: +26.0°
Horizontal Face: 1.5°L
Vertical Launch: 20.0°
Horizontal Launch: 0.0° (at target)
Vertical Differential: 27.0°
Horizontal Differential: 9.5°
3D Spin Loft: 28.5°
Ball Speed: 118mph
Spin Rate: 6500rpm
Apex: 100 feet
Face Contact: 0.25” towards Heel
Resulting Spin Axis: 15.0°L

Am I close?

 

[cwdlaw223]

So you decided what we were talking about? Can you tell that for me too? What level of players we are talking about?

What you would say to player if you take 10 shots to TM and they are between 4 in to 4 out and AoA -3 to +4 and 10 mph variation in chs. Give me your report and what you gonna do without going to his body movements. How you gonna teach her?

Clearly not beginners which is what you apparently teach. People who have broken 85. Keep focusing on those body movements!

 

[TeeAce]

Clearly not beginners which is what you apparently teach. People who have broken 85. Keep focusing on those body movements!

I mainly work with Pros and +4--4 hcp players, but also others and juniors.

Just had 3 hrs session with one pro who's path and face angle had lot of variation between the shots. We needed to go to body movements.

Why don't you answer my simply question?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Tapio,

Nobody is saying you can't take a golfer, any golfer, and work on the whole swing from the start of the lessons.

Teaching them all the body movements, then training them to precisely go through a "building Blocks" type of arm/hand/club training, and that you can do ALL of that without a ball.

And then, and only then, let them start hitting balls.

I used to do pretty much all of that, just like that.

I don't anymore.

I used to teach a flat swing. I don't really do that much anymore either.

I used to teach massive lag and bowing the left wrist to just about everyone, I teach it to a very small percentage now.

I taught some folks a steep shoulder turn for a while as well.

Don't do that anymore either.


Are you curious to why?


We get results too.


One student moved 80 places up the world ranking last year.




BTW, what Flightscope do you have?

 

[TeeAce]

Tapio,

Nobody is saying you can't take a golfer, any golfer, and work on the whole swing from the start of the lessons.

Teaching them all the body movements, then training them to precisely go through a "building Blocks" type of arm/hand/club training, and that you can do ALL of that without a ball.

And then, and only then, let them start hitting balls.

I used to do pretty much all of that, just like that.

I don't anymore.

I still do

I used to teach a flat swing. I don't really do that much anymore either.

I don't teach flat, flattening yes

I used to teach massive lag and bowing the left wrist to just about everyone, I teach it to a very small percentage now.

Not for many either. More that or less that for many

I taught some folks a steep shoulder turn for a while as well.

Never done that

Don't do that anymore either.


Are you curious to why?

Not really, because I go case by case


We get results too.


One student moved 80 places up the world ranking last year.

Congratulations But why only one?




BTW, what Flightscope do you have?

X2

 

[cwdlaw223]

I mainly work with Pros and +4--4 hcp players, but also others and juniors.

Just had 3 hrs session with one pro who's path and face angle had lot of variation between the shots. We needed to go to body movements.

Why don't you answer my simply question?

I would say you haven't given me enough data. I would also say why do you constantly fight me about Trackman and then turn around and give me impact data! Go teach your way. Have fun. List some pros and maybe you'll get some credibility with your video system. Brian already has it! I also bet you work from impact backwards with pros because the changes are so small. The results are much faster and easier with better players working from impact backwards. If you want to change the teaching world like Brian has go start your own site.

Why do you keep coming to his by the way if you have all of the answers????

 

[wulsy]

what blade? Old original blade where the cog was closer to the heel or the new where the cog is more towards the middle? What is a "higher then average?" who's average?

I like your attention to detail Frans.

COG a tad towards heel like in the blades from 5-6 years ago. Higher than tour average.

 

[wulsy]

I'm only doing 1:

Clubhead Speed: 90mph
Vertical Plane: 63.0°
Horizontal Plane: 8.5°R
Vertical Path/Angle of Attack: -1.0°
Horizontal (resultant) Path: 8.0°R
Vertical Face/Dynamic Loft: +26.0°
Horizontal Face: 1.5°L
Vertical Launch: 20.0°
Horizontal Launch: 0.0° (at target)
Vertical Differential: 27.0°
Horizontal Differential: 9.5°
3D Spin Loft: 28.5°
Ball Speed: 118mph
Spin Rate: 6500rpm
Apex: 100 feet
Face Contact: 0.25” towards Heel
Resulting Spin Axis: 15.0°L

Am I close?

Thanks for having a go. It'll be really cool to compare say Brian's numbers with yours and hopefully Frans and someone else will come up with some.

 

[DCgolf]

A guy calls for his car to be towed. It's an old broken down piece of sh**. The tow guy says "heh dude you need a new car". The guy tells him that he is not interested in a new car; that yesterday that old junker was working fine, just get it back up and running please. BALLFLIGHT LESSON.

A 30 year old, recent lottery winner comes to the pro and says, "Hey, I just won 100 million bucks, and want to be the best golfer in the world; I'll take lessons every day, every hour if that's what it takes"! The pro (after a minute of quiet exhilaration) says, "OK let's START FROM SCRATCH".

How do you know which lesson to do? How about asking the student?

 

[TeeAce]

I would say you haven't given me enough data. I would also say why do you constantly fight me about Trackman and then turn around and give me impact data! Go teach your way. Have fun. List some pros and maybe you'll get some credibility with your video system. Brian already has it! I also bet you work from impact backwards with pros because the changes are so small. The results are much faster and easier with better players working from impact backwards. If you want to change the teaching world like Brian has go start your own site.

Why do you keep coming to his by the way if you have all of the answers????

Enough data is given when I told it varies a lot.

You seem to have hard to understand that there is different situations all the time. Even with quite good players. If they got steady problem with the ball flight or we just want to change it, it would be TM/FS telling us the result of impact or what to change. Then I work from impact and like you said, changes are quite small in that case. No need to go to body movements.

When people come to the ball from different direction with different face angle and AoA, I have to see why their body is doing. I need to teach that people who is here at that moment rather than believe one device makes the heaven open for us.

 

[dbl]

I need to teach that people who is here at that moment rather than believe one device makes the heaven open for us.

I can't believe anyone here does not know that there are a large number of hackers who have inconsistent swings. Duh! Or really, that there is doubt anywhere.

Maybe you have to convince the hacker himself, but so what? I kind of doubt you need a $30,000 device to get that point across. But with such a varying golfer, who has said TM/FS or expensive cameras was "required" by a pro? Nobody that I've seen. So is this some sort of straw man?

 

[cwdlaw223]

Enough data is given when I told it varies a lot.

You seem to have hard to understand that there is different situations all the time. Even with quite good players. If they got steady problem with the ball flight or we just want to change it, it would be TM/FS telling us the result of impact or what to change. Then I work from impact and like you said, changes are quite small in that case. No need to go to body movements.

When people come to the ball from different direction with different face angle and AoA, I have to see why their body is doing. I need to teach that people who is here at that moment rather than believe one device makes the heaven open for us.

Not at all. I have a hard time for someone debating me about the benefits of Trackman and then turn around and use it. Hypocrisy! The machine is that good and the holy grail for impact. Tour players flock to get this information. The heavens do open up once you understand the D plane and practice with good impact data. What you feel and see aren't real in golf all of the time. Get that through your skull and start your own site with your breakthrough moves/ideas. You have all the answers so everyone should flock to hear what you have to say. You seem to want to ignore that there's a baseline player in these discussions and that I'm talking about Trackman use for a beginner. That's nonsense.

 

[mjstrong]

You can teach a great lesson without a launch monitor, but that same lesson would likely be at least a little better with numbers to verify.

TeeAce, I think others are talking about considering the ball-club-body relationships first, but that doesn't mean that they aren't changing a grip, or adding some axis tilt in order to help the club numbers.

From experience, even some of those beginners are thrilled when they get (for example) that horizontal path number closer to square, as they can't analyze ball flight themselves.

I think that, conceptually, you guys might not be as far apart as you think. When we put things into words, sometimes we're committed to defending the words themselves, instead of the philosophy they were supposed to represent.

...or I'm wrong and some of you are way off...

 

[TeeAce]

Not at all. I have a hard time for someone debating me about the benefits of Trackman and then turn around and use it. Hypocrisy!

That's nonsense.

Your thoughts are nonsense. I have never said anything negative about those devices. Only in your mind. Read my posts. How many times I have said they are great devices?

I had one session today with one pro player. I took him to FS because his season should start soon and I wanted him to concentrate the impact data. He didn't want to, because he felt his timing was off and he wanted to know if it has really changed or if he only felt like that. So we did what he wanted and saw that it was how he felt. So we ad to go back to body movements and why he stalled his pivot more than few weeks ago. So we found this and much more from his better shots archive

 

[cwdlaw223]

mjstrong -

You're right, but the fundamental disagreement is where to start. The dispute doesn't involve hacks and they don't need a $30,000 machine for their swing (never said they did by the way). The Tman followers start from impact backwards to help a better player improve. Teeace doesn't agree with impact backwards. Why? Presumably because he has a system or knows how to fix a person before looking at impact. I'll let him speak for himself, but that's my guess as to why he fights Kevin, myself (not a teacher) and Brian in this thread who all strongly believe it's impact backwards for the better player. Good players focus on impact conditions because we now have the data to do this and can improve quicker with this method.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Your thoughts are nonsense. I have never said anything negative about those devices. Only in your mind. Read my posts. How many times I have said they are great devices?

I had one session today with one pro player. I took him to FS because his season should start soon and I wanted him to concentrate the impact data. He didn't want to, because he felt his timing was off and he wanted to know if it has really changed or if he only felt like that. So we did what he wanted and saw that it was how he felt. So we ad to go back to body movements and why he stalled his pivot more than few weeks ago. So we found this and much more from his better shots archive

Then why exactly do you keep chiming in and take issue with myself, Kevin and Brian if you're a believer (which I suspect you are)? Your antagonism makes no sense. If you want to propose a new teaching method do it on your own site and stop telling us about how great a teacher you are. Let the world figure that out on its own.

 

[TeeAce]

Then why exactly do you keep chiming in and take issue with myself, Kevin and Brian if you're a believer (which I suspect you are)? Your antagonism makes no sense. If you want to propose a new teaching method do it on your own site and stop telling us about how great a teacher you are. Let the world figure that out on its own.

That issue is only in your head. You believe it's making everything, and I believe it's great tool but don't give all the answers I need.

If you believe everything, just go on. My work is not based on believing, I have to know. And that's why I ask questions. Questions that you feel bad, because you don't have the answers. But Brian will ask and then we know. If the tail of the driver affects to the measuring like I think it can, I need to know and that way be able to read the results better way. When I will know how the AoA is defined and from what period, I can read that data better. Whatever is the answer, It doesn't make those devices worse. It's just helping to understand few things more.

Anyway the truth will stand, everything what happens in the club face is caused by the body motion.