Jamie Lovemark Swing...

[lia41985]

Care to elaborate on what "check-swinger" means in terms of Morad

Sure! Maintaining those left and right arm pit pressure points gives the swing a restrained look that I, and others, describe as a check swing. I don't think you need to glue the arms to the torso like that to coordinate the movements of the arms and pivot, although I'm sure it can help some golfers. However, it can be detrimental too. I think that consciously maintaining this sort of "connectedness" can put the breaks on a proper kinetic sequence and also inhibit power generation by limiting range-of-motion. Why is why I'm confused about why maintaining these pressure points seems to be an imperative in MORAD/Stack and Tilt...care to explain why something, which works for some and definitely doesn't work for others, is imperative to a system/model?

 

[dbl]

Just a reminder that for "optimum" one must optimize something for a given variable. So for example for a single shot..."most distance" per unit of energy inputted, or for small set of shots "tightest dispersion" per unit of energy inputted. etc.

Considering the length of a round of golf, it may be something about keeping accuracy at a constant level (better than some minimum) for a given level of exertion on each shot, over the course of several hours - choose method A with exertion profile A1, A2, or A3, or method B with exertion B1, B2,or B3, etc.

 

[Kevin Shields]

lia41985, Richie is a big Stack & Tilt guy if that helps you answer his question. If I'm not mistaken, the premise with that is to marry consistency of contact with just enough distance to navigate around a normal course. I could be wrong but he may be asking if you think what is optimal might make you lose consistency because your arms arent glued to your chest....or something like that.

 

[tallathlete]

lia41985, Richie is a big Stack & Tilt guy if that helps you answer his question. If I'm not mistaken, the premise with that is to marry consistency of contact with just enough distance to navigate around a normal course. I could be wrong but he may be asking if you think what is optimal might make you lose consistency because your arms arent glued to your chest....or something like that.

Kevin, respectfully, I don't think that is an accurate statement.

 

[jeffgladchun]

I read this forum and just laugh at most of the suckers without one of these:

 

[Kevin Shields]

Its admittedly a pattern that sacrifices distance, is it not?

On second thought, I dont want a big debate. Its not that big a deal

 

[tallathlete]

Kevin, the pattern admittedly is not designed to hit the ball the maximum distance. In that respect you are correct.

 

[Richie3Jack]

lia41985, Richie is a big Stack & Tilt guy if that helps you answer his question. If I'm not mistaken, the premise with that is to marry consistency of contact with just enough distance to navigate around a normal course. I could be wrong but he may be asking if you think what is optimal might make you lose consistency because your arms arent glued to your chest....or something like that.

I didn't know I was a 'big Stack and Tilt' guy. Just because I find it to be a viable pattern...one that I do not even use, I don't know if that makes me a 'big Stack and Tilt guy.' There are things about S&T that I don't particularly care for as well. Just because I don't eschew the entire pattern I don't think makes one a 'big S&T guy.' What's funny is that I'll get S&T guys say that I'm a 'big Manzella guy.'

Optimum means to me that it *can* produce the best shot possible for that golfer's ability, physical makeup, etc. If John Daly gets ahold of one and keeps his path and face pretty square, he's going to hit pretty much an optimal shot. It's going to go long and straight and be very accurate.

Grant Waite (who used to hit the ball very long --- I don't know how he hits it these days), may not hit the most optimum shot for what he has. But OTOH, he may hit a ton of good shots and his bad shots may not be so bad. He may hit good shots 9 times out of 10 whereas Daly may be 5 times out of 10. But Daly's good shots are far more optimal than Grant's.

Again, I don't know how well Grant strikes it these days, but 12 years ago when he was just a 'checkswinger', nobody on the PGA Tour preferred to hit it like Daly over Grant. And Mac absolutely crushes the ball. Troy Matteson bombs it as well.

It's much like the choice of hitting up on the driver or having more of a 'flat hit.' Hitting up on the driver will lead to optimal shots if you get all of the factors right. But one may not be able to consistently hit up on the driver, get all of the factors right consistently and hit that optimal shot. Their precision may be way off.

That's all I was asking and I honestly did not know whether or not there was a difference between optimal or was accuracy/consistency was a part of that. And I think if there is a difference, it's important to study and understand both so one can possibly marry optimization with accuracy and precision.






3JACK

 

[tallathlete]

I saw Grant hit the ball in person 6 weeks ago. He strikes it superiorly.

 

[lia41985]

That's all I was asking and I honestly did not know whether or not there was a difference between optimal or was accuracy/consistency was a part of that. And I think if there is a difference, it's important to study and understand both so one can possibly marry optimization with accuracy and precision.

Cool! An intriguing question that probably won't be answered--it's a good philosophical question and folks can't even seem to agree on the non-philosophical stuff: science, mechanics, etc.

 

[weese]

Now that I know what the heck I am looking for, Paula has one of the best swings in golf.

I had to do a double take when I read this post. Paula Creamer one of the best swings in golf?

 

[TaylorMadeAP25]

This optimal mumbo jumbo is just show biz IMHO, I can throw a ball as far as I can and that would be optimal for distance, i can throw a ball a straight as I can with less power and that is optimal for that. Last time I check you need to hit the ball straight and powerfull enough to the play the golf course. "if you are trying to hammer a nail on a board with a sledge hammer, would you lift it up and drop in slot?"

 

[lia41985]

Proposed definition of "optimal":
zeroed-out on Trackman/Flightscope and the kinematic sequence, per 3-D motion capture system, resulting from a zeroed-out swing
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who looks like they've snapped their chains better? See Daily at :39, Lindsay at :34, Hunter at :23; compare to Waite at :09, Lovemark at :10, and Wi at :12. Did the check-swing produced any more of a straight/zeroed out/precise shot? More active pivots, better kinetic chain snaps, and zeroes. Restricted pivots, pressure points acting like a governing device, and push draws. I'd say the former was more optimal.

Hammer throwers:
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Checkswingers:
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[Glordfocker]

Sure! Maintaining those left and right arm pit pressure points gives the swing a restrained look that I, and others, describe as a check swing. I don't think you need to glue the arms to the torso like that to coordinate the movements of the arms and pivot, although I'm sure it can help some golfers. However, it can be detrimental too. I think that consciously maintaining this sort of "connectedness" can put the breaks on a proper kinetic sequence and also inhibit power generation by limiting range-of-motion. Why is why I'm confused about why maintaining these pressure points seems to be an imperative in MORAD/Stack and Tilt...care to explain why something, which works for some and definitely doesn't work for others, is imperative to a system/model?

Morad does not maintain left,right arm pit pressure points through out the swing

 

[lia41985]

Vijay throws:
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Incorporation:
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[Kevin Shields]

This optimal mumbo jumbo is just show biz IMHO, I can throw a ball as far as I can and that would be optimal for distance, i can throw a ball a straight as I can with less power and that is optimal for that. Last time I check you need to hit the ball straight and powerfull enough to the play the golf course. "if you are trying to hammer a nail on a board with a sledge hammer, would you lift it up and drop in slot?"

With all do respect, thats only a good analogy if you're hammering nails. Golf swing isnt anything like that at all.

 

[mgranato]

"if you are trying to hammer a nail on a board with a sledge hammer, would you lift it up and drop in slot?"

If you try to hit a nail with a sledge hammer, you would be following a faulty method. You would also be improperly fit for the right tool based on that faulty method. You would also be exposing yourself to unnecessary risk of injury by trying to make a less-than-optimal swing with a poor choice of tool. However, the route the sledge hammer takes is of no significance providing you can return the hammer to the head as close to square as possible.

Now, after all those contortions and over exaggerated positions, you'd eventually have to ask yourself - is this the best way to drive a nail?

My unsolicited advice would be to go find a professional carpenter and get fit for the right hammer. Get the right size grip, right weight, right length, and head for the job. Next, find someone who doesn't teach everyone to swing every hammer the same way - you don't want to hammer dry wall nails like you do framing nails.

At all costs - avoid buying a white tool belt, and avoid a forced, posed finish after you hit the nail. No one on the job site wants a Nancy in the crew.

 

[Brian Manzella]

This thread isn't going anywhere.

The morad guys think they know everything.

The s&t guys think they know everything.

The book literalists think they know everything.

I am damn sure they don't, and I don't either.

In my opinion, we are way out in front.

I never stop learning, and I have surrounded myself with super smart guys who never stop as well.

We are currently on a research mission, and in the next two days are meeting with two different world-class scientists.

What are the other groups doing today?

 

[Kevin Shields]

If you try to hit a nail with a sledge hammer, you would be following a faulty method. You would also be improperly fit for the right tool based on that faulty method. You would also be exposing yourself to unnecessary risk of injury by trying to make a less-than-optimal swing with a poor choice of tool. However, the route the sledge hammer takes is of no significance providing you can return the hammer to the head as close to square as possible.

Now, after all those contortions and over exaggerated positions, you'd eventually have to ask yourself - is this the best way to drive a nail?

My unsolicited advice would be to go find a professional carpenter and get fit for the right hammer. Get the right size grip, right weight, right length, and head for the job. Next, find someone who doesn't teach everyone to swing every hammer the same way - you don't want to hammer dry wall nails like you do framing nails.

At all costs - avoid buying a white tool belt, and avoid a forced, posed finish after you hit the nail. No one on the job site wants a Nancy in the crew.

This is the all time best post. Classic.