Lag Pressure Talk

[mandrin]

I'll try again...

Bad thread....

Ya'll miss the moderator.

Let's see if I have the questions correct?

1. Can the fact that the clubhead may be speeding up before impact, create a less decelerated clubhead by the time of separation?

2. Does the clubhead pick up speed from the shaft's bending and subsequent unbending?

Mandrin...you go first.

Brian,

Whilst I am most interested to learn more about Ringer’s theory of ‘clubhead changing direction through impact’ …….

(R) The sustaining of lag late into the downstroke ensures a rapid change of direction during the impact interval. That rapid change is considered acceleration since acceleration is altering either an objects speed or direction.

………..I don’t mind answering your two questions.

1. Can the fact that the clubhead may be speeding up before impact, create a less decelerated clubhead by the time of separation?
No

2. Does the clubhead pick up speed from the shaft's bending and subsequent unbending?
No.

 

[tongzilla]

if the clubhead can pick up speed from the unbending when it is not being swung, then why can't it pick up speed when it is?

 

[Brian Manzella]

No speed, eh?

Well, since you can't pick up any speed from the shaft, then the shaft simply provides for different timing and impact conditions.

Is that correct?

Good question, Leo. Looking forward to Mandrin's answers.

 

[mandrin]

if the clubhead can pick up speed from the unbending when it is not being swung, then why can't it pick up speed when it is?

Short question, just a few seconds to type. Complete answer takes a bit more more time.

Let me just say, to make you think a while, that not only parameters are important but also the context.

 

[mandrin]

Well, since you can't pick up any speed from the shaft, then the shaft simply provides for different timing and impact conditions.

Is that correct?

Yes

 

[lia41985]

Terrific thread, guys. Especially the last few posts.

 

[puttmad]

2. Does the clubhead pick up speed from the shaft's bending and subsequent unbending?
No.

Mandrin,

To make sure I understand this correctly...

The shaft bending (from "lagging" to towards the target) doesn't make the clubhead accelerate, BUT, it does allow the clubhead to continue at more or less the same rate while the left arm/unbent part of the shaft slows down?.....

 

[lia41985]

Ooh, good question puttmad. From the way you state it, it would seem like any kind of bending would create change of direction in the clubhead that could be termed acceleration. But I wonder if the problem is that we're speaking in magnitudes and relative terms. I look forward to mandrin's answer.

 

[Ringer]

I'm still trying to undestand how an unbending of the shaft doesn't increase the speed. Perhaps maybe provide more energy?

It's either one of two it seems. Either the club is unflexing through impact to provide more energy to the hit, or keeping the shaft prestressed will prevent the energy loss from going up the shaft.

But going back to the thing which Mandrin aparently wants more info...

The idea is simple. ACCELERATION will cause the shaft to remain flexed... and acceleration can also be a change of direction. The more abrupt the change in direction, the more stress is places on the shaft.

I think that's about the 3rd or 4th time I've explained it in this thread so I don't know what there is left to explain.

 

[lia41985]

Doesn't the shaft kick forward because it is decelerating as the head is accelerating? Therefore, the kicking of the shaft isn't correspondent with the idea that the shaft is pre-stressed to resist deceleration. Instead, in unbending, and therefore decelerating, in fact "relaxing" or "de-stressing", the shaft is part of the continual transfer of kinetic energy from body, to arms, to shaft, to clubhead--the power package "dump". Any sort of attempt to stiffen the shaft will therefore interrupt the transfer of kinetic energy, no? It's related, I think, to what mandrin was asking Brian in another thread about trying to have the club up the left arm for as long as possible--you may get more clubhead speed, but what's efficient/optimal given what we know from the standpoint of physics and biomechanics.

 

[puttmad]

I'm still trying to undestand how an unbending of the shaft doesn't increase the speed. Perhaps maybe provide more energy?

Steve,
I think it is due to the fact that the shaft will not unbend until the butt end/left arm slows down.
Without the slowing, the shaft would remain stressed and bent...
The same way the shaft cannot catch up to the left arm until the left arm slows, the bent shaft cannot catch up (and overtake) the butt/unbent part of the shaft until that correspondingly slows down ..I think...

 

[Ringer]

Steve,
I think it is due to the fact that the shaft will not unbend until the butt end/left arm slows down.
Without the slowing, the shaft would remain stressed and bent...
The same way the shaft cannot catch up to the left arm until the left arm slows, the bent shaft cannot catch up (and overtake) the butt/unbent part of the shaft until that correspondingly slows down ..I think...

That does make sense. The WHOLE club from the kick point up must be slowing down in order for the clubhead to be unflexing.

 

[mandrin]

I'm still trying to undestand how an unbending of the shaft doesn't increase the speed. Perhaps maybe provide more energy?

It's either one of two it seems. Either the club is unflexing through impact to provide more energy to the hit, or keeping the shaft prestressed will prevent the energy loss from going up the shaft.

But going back to the thing which Mandrin aparently wants more info...

The idea is simple. ACCELERATION will cause the shaft to remain flexed... and acceleration can also be a change of direction. The more abrupt the change in direction, the more stress is places on the shaft.

I think that's about the 3rd or 4th time I've explained it in this thread so I don't know what there is left to explain.

Ringer,

You said in your opening post that you had given it all very serious consideration, lag, velocity, etc.,..……….., and your conclusion is posted as -

(R) "The sustaining of lag late into the downstroke ensures a rapid change of direction during the impact interval. That rapid change is considered acceleration since acceleration is altering either an objects speed or direction".

Please, explain what you mean by above.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer,

You said in your opening post that you had given it all very serious consideration, lag, velocity, etc.,..……….., and your conclusion is posted as -

(R) "The sustaining of lag late into the downstroke ensures a rapid change of direction during the impact interval. That rapid change is considered acceleration since acceleration is altering either an objects speed or direction".

Please, explain what you mean by above.

Well since the swing is circular it is constantly changing direction. By sustaining the lag later into the swing the circle the axis point that the clubhead travels around is closer to the ball causing the arc to be tighter. It's swinging around the hands as the axis instead of the upper body. (Double pendulum type theory)

By having a more abrupt change of direction (smaller arc) it ensures that there is MORE acceleration during that time than if the arc was wider.

I don't know if I can explain it any more without some specific questions.

 

[mandrin]

Well since the swing is circular it is constantly changing direction. By sustaining the lag later into the swing the circle the axis point that the clubhead travels around is closer to the ball causing the arc to be tighter. It's swinging around the hands as the axis instead of the upper body. (Double pendulum type theory)

By having a more abrupt change of direction (smaller arc) it ensures that there is MORE acceleration during that time than if the arc was wider.

I don't know if I can explain it any more without some specific questions.

Ringer,

Let me just clearly state that, contrary to your considerations,

sustaining of lag late into the downstroke does not ensure any acceleration during the impact interval.

The clubhead does not accelerate but instead decelerates significantly during the impact interval.

During impact the clubhead and ball have a private meeting and the golfer is definitely not invited.

 

[mandrin]

I gave tongzilla some hint and he is likely very busy seriously thinking about it.

I have another clue for understanding the shaft business for those interested,

A fish can be genuinely a fish because there is water.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I gave tongzilla some hint and he is likely very busy seriously thinking about it.

I have another clue for understanding the shaft business for those interested,

A fish can be genuinely a fish because there is water.

Hi Mandrin

During impact the clubhead and ball have a private meeting and the Shaft is definitely not invited.

Cheers

 

[daniell]

Mandarin said .. "sustaining of lag late into the downstroke does not ensure any acceleration during the impact interval.[/I] "

I second this. I was read golf instructions that say 'lag, lag,lag ..' and guess what, I didn't understand how to release it (please do not read this to mean no lag at impact).

 

[lia41985]

Search for the Perfect Swing discusses this whole phenomenon, the late hit, very clearly.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer,

Let me just clearly state that, contrary to your considerations,

sustaining of lag late into the downstroke does not ensure any acceleration during the impact interval.

The clubhead does not accelerate but instead decelerates significantly during the impact interval.

During impact the clubhead and ball have a private meeting and the golfer is definitely not invited.

Does your definition of deceleration include direction or only speed?