left arm rotation on backswing?
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Here is the complete list...
cen·ter [sént#601;r]
n (plural cen·ters)
1. middle point or area: the middle point, area, or part of something that is the same distance from all edges or opposite sides
2. mathematics middle of circle or sphere: the interior point that is the same distance from all points on the circumference of a circle or the surface of a sphere or the vertices of a polygon
3. mathematics middle of line: the point on a line that is the same distance from both ends
4. food food filling: the filling of a chocolate, doughnut, or other food
5. main part of town: the part of a town or city where the main stores, offices, and other facilities are situated
6. place for particular activity: a place where a particular activity is carried on
a sports center
7. focus of attention: the point that is the focus of attention or interest
the issue at the center of the controversy
8. influential place or organization: a place, area, or group of people exerting control or influence over something or somebody else
a center of design innovation
9. cluster or concentration: a place or part where something is concentrated or focused
a population center
10. cen·ter
Cen·ter
politics political moderates: those political parties or the section of a party holding views that are neither left-wing nor right-wing
11. sports middle player or position: a player or position in the middle of the field or court, usually responsible for initiating play
12. pivotal point or axis: the point or line around which something rotates
13. baseball See center field
14. physics point where force acts: the point at or through which a force is considered to act
15. anatomy group of nerve cells regulating function: a group of nerve cells, especially within the central nervous system, that controls a particular function of the body
16. mechanical engineering conical part of lathe: a part of a lathe that supports the work to be turned
17. mechanical engineering mark to guide drill: a dimple made in metal with a pointed tool (center punch) to mark the center of a larger hole to be drilled
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
I only left out the unneccessary ones.. and I'm not sure how "The source with which something originates" is an accurate description of "center". At the very least it is an inaccurate one for this particular discussion.
How is a part of the swing a moot point in a discussion about the swing? I think you need to define the swing then, because it appears you want to leave out some very relevant points just to avoid their contradictions with your theory.
cen·ter [sént#601;r]
n (plural cen·ters)
1. middle point or area: the middle point, area, or part of something that is the same distance from all edges or opposite sides
2. mathematics middle of circle or sphere: the interior point that is the same distance from all points on the circumference of a circle or the surface of a sphere or the vertices of a polygon
3. mathematics middle of line: the point on a line that is the same distance from both ends
4. food food filling: the filling of a chocolate, doughnut, or other food
5. main part of town: the part of a town or city where the main stores, offices, and other facilities are situated
6. place for particular activity: a place where a particular activity is carried on
a sports center
7. focus of attention: the point that is the focus of attention or interest
the issue at the center of the controversy
8. influential place or organization: a place, area, or group of people exerting control or influence over something or somebody else
a center of design innovation
9. cluster or concentration: a place or part where something is concentrated or focused
a population center
10. cen·ter
Cen·ter
politics political moderates: those political parties or the section of a party holding views that are neither left-wing nor right-wing
11. sports middle player or position: a player or position in the middle of the field or court, usually responsible for initiating play
12. pivotal point or axis: the point or line around which something rotates
13. baseball See center field
14. physics point where force acts: the point at or through which a force is considered to act
15. anatomy group of nerve cells regulating function: a group of nerve cells, especially within the central nervous system, that controls a particular function of the body
16. mechanical engineering conical part of lathe: a part of a lathe that supports the work to be turned
17. mechanical engineering mark to guide drill: a dimple made in metal with a pointed tool (center punch) to mark the center of a larger hole to be drilled
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
I only left out the unneccessary ones.. and I'm not sure how "The source with which something originates" is an accurate description of "center". At the very least it is an inaccurate one for this particular discussion.
How is a part of the swing a moot point in a discussion about the swing? I think you need to define the swing then, because it appears you want to leave out some very relevant points just to avoid their contradictions with your theory.
The right shoulder doesn't work around and rotationally as you are professing.
Don't hate, because the right shoulder is driving down and applying the effort like a 3rd class lever would.
Stand up and swing your arm, hopefully its swinging from the shoulder socket. I'd call that the origin. Definition works for most. I'm fine with that.
Don't hate, because the right shoulder is driving down and applying the effort like a 3rd class lever would.
Stand up and swing your arm, hopefully its swinging from the shoulder socket. I'd call that the origin. Definition works for most. I'm fine with that.
I like number four.
Whats up with dividing the swing equally? I bet you have a very neat car and closets. I bet it really nags at you that your right shoulder is lower than your left and that you can't have your golf ball perfectly centered between your feet. Do you watch, Monk?
Your right shoulder doesn't really spin around your spine? you were just kidding, Right? Right?
Whats up with dividing the swing equally? I bet you have a very neat car and closets. I bet it really nags at you that your right shoulder is lower than your left and that you can't have your golf ball perfectly centered between your feet. Do you watch, Monk?
Your right shoulder doesn't really spin around your spine? you were just kidding, Right? Right?
I have heard 5 of the 50 C.D. recordings of Homer Kelley teaching class's (the MOST valuable C.D.s on the planet).Chuck works here in Mesa Az.(We have 3 A.I.s here).
Yoda asked Homer if we should concentrate on a stationary left shoulder ------------Since this was the second time Yoda asked the same question-- Homer said forcefully "FORGETABOUTIT" " I see no value of monitoring the left shoulder".
Holenone correct me if I error.
Another time someone in the class asked about the problem of a moving center i.e." The left shoulder"--- Homer said " In 4/10,000 of a second that the club is on the ball that it ddn't matter.
Yoda asked Homer if we should concentrate on a stationary left shoulder ------------Since this was the second time Yoda asked the same question-- Homer said forcefully "FORGETABOUTIT" " I see no value of monitoring the left shoulder".
Holenone correct me if I error.
Another time someone in the class asked about the problem of a moving center i.e." The left shoulder"--- Homer said " In 4/10,000 of a second that the club is on the ball that it ddn't matter.
Thats pretty much as straight from the horse's mouth as we are going to get it. Thanks for clarifying that, Denny.
Thats why I have also wondered why the preoccupation with "both arms straight"? The ball is only a half mile down the driving range by the time your at this position. The machine accomplished its objective way before this position. If your left elbow breaks to accommodate a balanced finish or if you chicken wing, anti-left your swing like Bruce Fleisher or Jim Thorpe.
Thats why I have also wondered why the preoccupation with "both arms straight"? The ball is only a half mile down the driving range by the time your at this position. The machine accomplished its objective way before this position. If your left elbow breaks to accommodate a balanced finish or if you chicken wing, anti-left your swing like Bruce Fleisher or Jim Thorpe.
rwh
New
A good point, Steve. I'll try to define the standard, uncompensated stroke as I understand Mr. Kelley to present it in TGM.
Mr. Kelley describes the golf stroke in terms of the Left Arm "always swinging" and the Right Arm "always driving". There is one long "Primary Lever" that is made up of the Left Arm and Golf Club clamped together by the hands. The clamp allows only a vertical motion of the Left Wrist. The Primary Lever thus swings freely in an Arc from the Left Shoulder Joint, making that joint the "center" of the swinging Left Arm and, by extension, the Primary Lever. Because of the Left Wrist Clamp design, the components of the Primary Lever are always aligned vertically, even though the Wrist may cock or uncock and that is because the Left Wrist doesn't bend. In TGM, the Left Arm is inert, which promotes a free swinging from the shoulder joint but requires something to "drive" it.
There are two ways to Drive the Left Arm -- muscular power of the Right Arm (Hitting) or use of rotational (centrifugal) forces (Swinging). These methods are mutually exclusive. The Right Arm acts as a structural support in either procedure and, also, "drives" the inert Left Arm through the bending and straightening of the Elbow. The Pivot has its role, too, and because it is essentially a circular motion, it, too, has a center which is located somewhere on the spine.
Seen this way, the center of the "swing" is the Left Shoulder Joint and the Right Arm and Body supply motion, drive and support to that swinging Left Arm.
As an aside, it seems to me that what I've described is essentially an Iron Byron, except that we humans have to power that swinging left arm a little differently.
Finally, I understand that you see the swing as more of a "two armed" event; i.e., you don't see the Left Arm as inert. I can certainly see how this view would want a different center and I respect that. In the end, we all have to do it ourselves in the way that makes the most sense to us.
Good golfing to everyone!
Sure.. I'll go with #4. 4. pivotal point or axis: the point or line around which something rotates.
The thing about being the center is that it's what everything moves around making it the CENTER of the arc. When a complete motions back and around to the starting point is made, it creates a circular arc. At the CENTER of that circular arc is the spine. It is the point that the hands orbit, not the left shoulder.
I bet you have a very neat car and closets.
No, and what does this have to do with the discussion?
I bet it really nags at you that your right shoulder is lower than your left
No, and what does this have to do with the discussion?
that you can't have your golf ball perfectly centered between your feet.
No, and what does this have to do with the discussion?
Do you watch, Monk?
No, and what does this have to do with the discussion?
Since we're getting personal, do you have problems finding error in your own judgments? It seems that an easy to understand concept which I have explained as I would to a 10 year old has not helped you find your error, perhaps I need to lower it to 8 year old terms.
Thank you rwh.. I think it makes it for a mutual understanding of the two sides. I completely understand the argument.
It seems that there can be multiple interpretations to what the "center of the swing" should be. But in 1-L-1 quite clearly puts the "Stationar Post" at the center of the circular arc (1-L-9). The left shoulder act as the angled hinge pin. The left arm moves moves more vertically with the angled hinge pin. While the horizontal hinge pin (shoulders) moves the arm horizontally.
7-13: "But the Arms will always seek to move to -and on- the the Plane of the Shoulder Turn..."
So what then is the center of that shoulder turn?
rwh
New
The spine is the center of the Shoulder Turn (2-H).
And, yes, the stationary post is the player's head, but I think the shoulder is the Horizontal Hinge Pin and the angled hinge pin is the Flat Left Wrist (showing vetical motion, only). But, admittedly, I'm not sure on this and would hope that someone else would help us. (Note: it always looked to me like that small rectangular "shoulder" is drawn on the wrong side of the post. I've got to get this straight). [:I]
I'm sure of this, however: 1-L-9 concerns what I was saying in the previous post -- the Primary Lever Assembly moves in a circle about the left shoulder, regardless of whether it is being driven by muscular (right arm) force or rotational (centrifugal) force.
I'll double check the 1-L diagram and get back to you.
You're dead on, Denny. Though he didn't use those exact words -- after all, he wasn't from New York City! -- Homer would have no part of this Left Shoulder business, and he made no bones about it. In a day when Steve Martin was just beginning his rise to fame, I felt like saying...
Well, E-X-C-U-S-E me!
rwh
New
quote:Originally posted by holenone
You're dead on, Denny. Though he didn't use those exact words -- after all, he wasn't from New York City! -- Homer would have no part of this Left Shoulder business, and he made no bones about it. In a day when Steve Martin was just beginning his rise to fame, I felt like saying...
Well, E-X-C-U-S-E me!
Holenone/Yoda:
Regarding the 1-L diagram. If you get the time, could you tell us what body parts the horizontal hinge pin and the angled hinge pin represent? I thought they represented the left shoulder and the left wrist, respectively. But then, that little hinge pin rectangle piece looks like it's on the wrong side of the post.
I hate Fog.
The theoretical Horizontal Hinge Pin is located in the Left Shoulder and controls the Plane of Motion of the Clubface. The Angled Hinge Pin is likewise located in the Shoulder and controls the Plane of Motion of the Clubshaft.
Pay particular attention to the italization and bolding above. It is important and there for a reason. I wrote an extensive post on this some time ago, and I've reprinted it below.
Finally, don't worry about the hinge being mounted on the 'wrong side of the post.' The Hinge Action is the same regardless of its mounting. Homer put it on the right side of the post so we could see it better. A nice thought, don't you think?
REPRINT
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Short Answer:
The pin you are referring to in Sketch 1-L is the one that attaches the Club (Primary Lever Assembly) to the Horizontal Hinge. Though this pin is, in fact, mounted vertical (perpendicular) to a vertical plane, it is not the Hinge Pin of a Vertical Hinge. In other words, it is not a Vertical Hinge Pin. Instead, it is the Hinge Pin of an Angled Hinge. And in Sketch 1-L, that Angled Hinge Pin is mounted vertical (perpendicular) to a vertical plane. [8D]
Got that?
Didn't think so. Let's have another go at it. Long Answer:
In the normal Dual Horizontal Hinge arrangement (10-10-D), two hinges are required: (1) The primary Horizontal Hinge (with its pin mounted vertically to a Horizontal Plane) to permit Horizontal (Closing) Clubface Motion only; and (2) a secondary Angled Hinge (with its pin mounted vertically to a vertical Plane) to permit the Clubshaft to be lowered onto the face of the Inclined Plane.
Sketch 1-L represents the absolute economy of this dual hinge arrangement in that there is no (apparent) Angled Hinge! There is only an Angled Hinge Pin! The function of the Angled Hinge is served by the angled Club. And the pin of that Angled Club/Hinge -- the Angled Club/Hinge Pin -- is mounted 'vertical to a vertical plane,' thus enabling the Club to be lowered (in a vertical plane) onto the face of the Inclined Plane.
So, the Vertical Hinge Pin you refer to is, in fact, an Angled Hinge Pin.
And not a Vertical Hinge Pin.
Have a nice day!
No, Ringer, You are talking about a non-swing center, like pivot or shoulder turn. I'm talking about the machine. Where the left shoulder is center of a swinging left arm. I'll remain an eight or ten year old and swing this way. You can be a mature, anal, torso spinning machine. Talk about a problematic move! Its a free country, knock yourself out!
Wake up call! You can't spin your spine fast enough to hit a ball with any kind of sizzle and more importantly you can't spin your spine fast enough to have your arms,shaft and clubhead orbit around your spine in the quarter-turn that is your pivot.
Your only kidding yourself, not me. But, keep on spinning brother.
Wake up call! You can't spin your spine fast enough to hit a ball with any kind of sizzle and more importantly you can't spin your spine fast enough to have your arms,shaft and clubhead orbit around your spine in the quarter-turn that is your pivot.
Your only kidding yourself, not me. But, keep on spinning brother.
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