left arm rotation on backswing?
- Thread starter TYORKE1
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Ok, I've been trying to prevent myself from doing this on this forum.. but I gotta do it.
[instructor-mode]
Bottom line, the hands move around a central point.. and that point is the base of the neck. It is the CENTER of the swing. But there IS NO RADIUS TO THE HANDS from that point.
There is a TRIANGLE that moves around the center. One side of which shortens in the backswing, and another that shortens on the forward swing. This is the way it is described in the book.
EdZ description is similar, but not exactly accurate. When you recognize that when you shorten one side of the triangle, you REPLACE the third angle of the triange (where the hands meet) to another location. This can be illustrated very very simply.
Take your setup. Now bend your right elbow but keep the left one straight. You MUST MOVE THE HANDS... making it impossible to keep a RADIUS with the hands.
[/instructor-mode]
[instructor-mode]
Bottom line, the hands move around a central point.. and that point is the base of the neck. It is the CENTER of the swing. But there IS NO RADIUS TO THE HANDS from that point.
There is a TRIANGLE that moves around the center. One side of which shortens in the backswing, and another that shortens on the forward swing. This is the way it is described in the book.
EdZ description is similar, but not exactly accurate. When you recognize that when you shorten one side of the triangle, you REPLACE the third angle of the triange (where the hands meet) to another location. This can be illustrated very very simply.
Take your setup. Now bend your right elbow but keep the left one straight. You MUST MOVE THE HANDS... making it impossible to keep a RADIUS with the hands.
[/instructor-mode]
Brian Manzella
Administrator
eh......no.
Steve - we swing 'inside' this largest possible circle, that defined AT both arms straight. You can not be 'on' the circle's edge the entire swing and have lag by definition. You must move inside it, swing inside it, and reach the radius in a whipping motion, cracking the whip at both arms straight.
Again, I am talking about the movement of the force, the physics. Why aiming point is where it is.
Golf is geometry, physics and anatomy. The intersection of the requirements and laws of each is the perfect swing.
EdZ, first off.. look at your last phrase and tell me that isn't even the slightest bit patronizing. I think we are all vastly aware of this fact, so to even mention it is the equivilant of thumbing your nose. It is, in my judgement, in poor taste. But I digress...
The unfortunate bit about what you state, is that since the circle you describe is not actually created by any moving part but merely one of imaginary disignation, it cannot be placed in a book built upon component cataloging. If I were constructing a kite, I would not give instructions about the direction the wind must be blowing. Since we are constructing it, the direction of the wind is silly to even mention, nor does it give us direction or purpose in our kite building. Now it may be FACT that in order for the kite to fly, it must have the nose pointed into the wind.. but that is for another book on HOW TO FLY a kite.. not it's construction.
An odd comparrison to what you're describing, I realize, but it is precisely the type of thing you are doing.
All I would now need to ask of your definition is "How much further inside must the hands be inside of the circle.." and you are left without an exact answer but merely an aproximation based upon your best guess.
As I understand swing mechanics... the center of the Shoulder Turn is the head or spine, there is a center of Gravity of the human body, which is slightly different for men and women, the center of the Swinging Left arm is the Left Shoulder, and it is possible for the center to be in the Right Elbow in right arm swinging.
There are multiple centers...
There are multiple centers...
...Ringer you are correct...you can build a kite without knowing about the nuts and bolts and wind conditions and factors...you are correct...you can do the same with your swing if you wish...learn the correct way to build but not taking care of the different factors that can influence the shot...
you are correct, you can build that kite...but if you want to build the better kite, if you want to build it better than before, than you MUST have more information...maybe that way youre kite wont nosedive down into the bank because it was not built on consideration of wind turbulence etc...you can build it and learn to fly it and also learn to manage it in the storm...now theres a real instruction manual to fly a simple kite...everyone finds his own...
theres the kiddy section and the engineer section of flying IF one desires to peak at it to learn more...either the Joe Duffer or Joe Pro.Guess Homer called em options.
my 0.02$
Ringer - while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I am not intending to patronize anyone.
Re: the circle - yes, there are multiple circles, with multiple centers. Einstien's theory of relativity, for the golf swing, if you will. It is a matter of perspective and frame of reference.
As for what defines the circle, my choice would be PP1 for practical application.
Re: the circle - yes, there are multiple circles, with multiple centers. Einstien's theory of relativity, for the golf swing, if you will. It is a matter of perspective and frame of reference.
As for what defines the circle, my choice would be PP1 for practical application.
I don't reject that the left arm moves around from the shoulder joint, just that this is not the center of the 'force' you are applying - hence why I think 2K needs modification/clarification.
The left shoulder moves and therefore can not be the center of efficient motion. The center of efficient motion is the point that moves the least during a swing - between the shoulders on the back. The hands, pp1, travel around that center of mass.
Now, if you wanted to swing with a 'stable' left shoulder, I'd be with you on it being the center (zero pivot, left arm only swing).
Also, the 'downward' and 'hands leading' critical components of a good swing are important to understand - that your right arm is not straight and your right wrist is bent. Radius power. What is the largest radius you can have with two hands on the club? Anatomy requires this can only be at both arms straight - which is why axis tilt is a factor as is ball position and right wrist bend.
We've been down this road.
The left shoulder moves and therefore can not be the center of efficient motion. The center of efficient motion is the point that moves the least during a swing - between the shoulders on the back. The hands, pp1, travel around that center of mass.
Now, if you wanted to swing with a 'stable' left shoulder, I'd be with you on it being the center (zero pivot, left arm only swing).
Also, the 'downward' and 'hands leading' critical components of a good swing are important to understand - that your right arm is not straight and your right wrist is bent. Radius power. What is the largest radius you can have with two hands on the club? Anatomy requires this can only be at both arms straight - which is why axis tilt is a factor as is ball position and right wrist bend.
We've been down this road.
rwh
New
You are comingling issues. I'm not discussing how the left arm is moved right now. I'm only discussing the shape of the motion of the left arm around the shoulder joint. Stick with that.
Do you agree that the left arm moves in an arc around the shoulder joint irrespective of where the shoulder joint may be located in space? Yes or No.
Do you agree that the left arm moves in an arc around the shoulder joint irrespective of where the shoulder joint may be located in space? Yes or No.
EdZ:
One question...wouldn't you can have the largest radius at various points of the swing, so long as your left wrist does not cock? The cocking of the left wrist (Accumulator #2) will shorten the radius...without wrist cock, the radius remains the same. The swing cannot make a 'complete' circle, unless the left shoulder moves, due to Checkrein action
I know the road has been travled, but...
FL-John
One question...wouldn't you can have the largest radius at various points of the swing, so long as your left wrist does not cock? The cocking of the left wrist (Accumulator #2) will shorten the radius...without wrist cock, the radius remains the same. The swing cannot make a 'complete' circle, unless the left shoulder moves, due to Checkrein action
I know the road has been travled, but...
FL-John
No, to the extent that the left arm is not straight past the both arms straight position.
Read what Hogan had to say in 5 lessons re: always keeping one arm straight (I don't recall the exact quote at the moment unfortunately).
There are many benefits of doing so (think 'extensor action on both sides of the ball' with the 'mirror point' or 'rotation point' at both arms straight)
Brian, i have a little "montage" of an image i did for an AI who asked me to spice up his lines showing the radius and stuff...i was wondering if i could post it here? i think it would add something to this thread, might not be perfect but i guess everythings debatable!
if i may, could you tell me how to post it please, thanks.
if i may, could you tell me how to post it please, thanks.
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