left arm rotation on backswing?
- Thread starter TYORKE1
- Start date
- Status
If Ness is a G.S.E.M., he needs to explain this quote from the GolfDigest Lesson Tee article, 'Making an impact': "Drive the butt end of the club forward, toward the target, which keeps the club trailing your left arm through impact. Tour players make this move on every swing."
The "target", in this context, is the desired landing area for the ball, and NOT an aiming point near the ball. There is a pic of the golfer pulling the butt of a horizontal shaft, towards the horizon.
This will lead to DISASTER, for a tour player as well as a beginner!
The "target", in this context, is the desired landing area for the ball, and NOT an aiming point near the ball. There is a pic of the golfer pulling the butt of a horizontal shaft, towards the horizon.
This will lead to DISASTER, for a tour player as well as a beginner!
EdZ, Your starting to scare me. "Radius/Three dimensional space? Mid body hands for a balanced triangle?" Radius is a term applied to a measurment of a two dimensional item. Here on planet earth we call that item the CIRCLE. The radius usually equates to half a circle's diameter. My money is on holenone and Tom Ness. You can't Adlib the yellow book, its steeped in science. And by the way mid body hands have absolutely nothing to do with "Balanced Triangles" and everything to do with accomodating a better takeaway. The yellow book predisposes illusions, agrees to disagrees, and interpretations. It sticks to physics.
Here are a few things to consider:
1.) Radius is a straight line that describes half the diameter of a two dimensional item called a circle.
2.) Biomechanically if you look at a golfer from the front, at impact a relatively straight line exists from impact to the left shoulder. That would be the geometric center of the swing, not spine, as you contend. (exclude the flex created in the loaded shaft) Thats why hands must lead through impact.
3.) For your erroneous description to be applicable. The only way spine is center is if you address ball holding golf club in left hand only, turn back to target, align clubhead, hand, left shoulder, and spine. Now, spin like a top! good job! Run a video camera from directly above your pupil. It should look something like a propeller. The spine will be the hub and the straight line from spine to clubhead will be a spoke or radius.
4.) Ed, Show me a continuous straight line of body parts from your hub (the spine)to the end of the radius (the clubhead)? Its imperative that the line is straight, because by definition a radius is a straight line. If your torso faces the ball at impact in your golf swing it is an impossibility to draw a straight line from spine to clubhead. However for arguments sake, start tracing from the spine. I'll guess you ended up at the shoulder, then a straight contiuous line was possible.
You have three options. Show me a drawing with a straight line from spine to impact(No Air), or your famous misguided quote, Show me a rock swinging around on a string, with a kink in the string, right where the shoulder is, or concede this point. Its not that big a deal.
1.) Radius is a straight line that describes half the diameter of a two dimensional item called a circle.
2.) Biomechanically if you look at a golfer from the front, at impact a relatively straight line exists from impact to the left shoulder. That would be the geometric center of the swing, not spine, as you contend. (exclude the flex created in the loaded shaft) Thats why hands must lead through impact.
3.) For your erroneous description to be applicable. The only way spine is center is if you address ball holding golf club in left hand only, turn back to target, align clubhead, hand, left shoulder, and spine. Now, spin like a top! good job! Run a video camera from directly above your pupil. It should look something like a propeller. The spine will be the hub and the straight line from spine to clubhead will be a spoke or radius.
4.) Ed, Show me a continuous straight line of body parts from your hub (the spine)to the end of the radius (the clubhead)? Its imperative that the line is straight, because by definition a radius is a straight line. If your torso faces the ball at impact in your golf swing it is an impossibility to draw a straight line from spine to clubhead. However for arguments sake, start tracing from the spine. I'll guess you ended up at the shoulder, then a straight contiuous line was possible.
You have three options. Show me a drawing with a straight line from spine to impact(No Air), or your famous misguided quote, Show me a rock swinging around on a string, with a kink in the string, right where the shoulder is, or concede this point. Its not that big a deal.
Corkey, you aren't seeing it - think of a line that is perpendicular to the shoulder line, going straight to the HANDS.
At impact, the shoulders are tilted, as is the line.
the clubhead is not in line until both arms straight - hence you have lag - the flail is not fully extended until after the ball is gone.
One of the reasons folks tend to have throwaway is that they try to extend the flail at the ball. The aiming point is not the ball, it is in front of the ball, as Brian put it, where your hands would fly off at both arms straight. (near a 45 degree angle to the ground)
All of the force is sent to both arms straight - J. Miller likes to mention his arms feeling 'stretched' from the shoulders at both arms straight - that is full flail
At impact, the shoulders are tilted, as is the line.
the clubhead is not in line until both arms straight - hence you have lag - the flail is not fully extended until after the ball is gone.
One of the reasons folks tend to have throwaway is that they try to extend the flail at the ball. The aiming point is not the ball, it is in front of the ball, as Brian put it, where your hands would fly off at both arms straight. (near a 45 degree angle to the ground)
All of the force is sent to both arms straight - J. Miller likes to mention his arms feeling 'stretched' from the shoulders at both arms straight - that is full flail
Take a look at this pic of Ernie, and the pic of (appleby?) behind him.
draw a line perpendicular to their shoulder line
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/79626/1/4107424
draw a line perpendicular to their shoulder line
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/79626/1/4107424
Tilting does apply, yes, as does ball position - and what happens after impact is the result of what took place before impact
the hands are the rock, the perpendicular line (at impact) to the shoulders is the string
You might try defending your points with facts, rather than just insisting 'tilt has nothing to do with it', tell me why, support your points.
take a look at the pics, and support your point - perhaps Mathew can draw some lines in for us?
for another example take a look at the pic of Brian at the top of the page
the hands are the rock, the perpendicular line (at impact) to the shoulders is the string
You might try defending your points with facts, rather than just insisting 'tilt has nothing to do with it', tell me why, support your points.
take a look at the pics, and support your point - perhaps Mathew can draw some lines in for us?
for another example take a look at the pic of Brian at the top of the page
The pic of Ernie is point #2 exactly! Thanks for reinforcing. I can see a straight line from Ernie's left shoulder to clubface, hands forward of impact because of flex in shaft. If we had a super high speed camera that could take a picture of Ernie's swing. The clubhead, shaft and Ernie's arm the spoke on a wheel. Where's the axel, Ed? The Left Shoulder.
EdZ,
It seems that by introducing the right shoulder as a second radius center, you're describing more of an oval than a circle...
The only constant radius I can see from Impact Fix to Follow Through is the Left Arm. Although the entire Circle is transported by the Pivot, it is, nonetheless, a Circle with the Left Shoulder as its hub.
It seems that by introducing the right shoulder as a second radius center, you're describing more of an oval than a circle...
The only constant radius I can see from Impact Fix to Follow Through is the Left Arm. Although the entire Circle is transported by the Pivot, it is, nonetheless, a Circle with the Left Shoulder as its hub.
The fact is..... The ball does not care about post impact.....Period! You butchered the science, again. "Hands are the Rock"? We cannot argue that the radius of a circle is finite. It does not expand and contract..Ex. All the spokes on my bike are the same length, because my wheel is a perfect circle. Elementary enough for you ,ED? All the measurements from my left shoulder to my hand, throughout the swing is the same. However, distance from spine to hands throughout golf swing vary. Checkmate! Your done! I'm done! If holenone in his infinite wisdom can't fix you, I sure can't. I won't be posting on this subject anymore.
The right shoulder is not the center either....
corky, I'm glad you have convinced yourself, but you still are not understanding what I am saying.
No butchering of science at all, in fact, my view supports 'lag' even more so than the left shoulder being the hub (a moving one at that, hardly efficient force).
OK, how about this...
agree or disagree - at both arms straight, you should feel 'both your arms pull from the socket', just a bit
yes or no - simple answer
you'd rather just give up than defend your points?
The axle of your bike's wheel, does it move?
the axle I am talking about is at the mid point between the shoulders at the base of the neck. There is no body part that traces the plane except the HANDS. The 'spoke' runs from that 'stable' center, to the HANDS, perpendicular to the shoulder line at impact, fully straight at both arms straight.
It is the line of force, the aiming point is this perpendicular line to the shoulders.
corky, I'm glad you have convinced yourself, but you still are not understanding what I am saying.
No butchering of science at all, in fact, my view supports 'lag' even more so than the left shoulder being the hub (a moving one at that, hardly efficient force).
OK, how about this...
agree or disagree - at both arms straight, you should feel 'both your arms pull from the socket', just a bit
yes or no - simple answer
you'd rather just give up than defend your points?
The axle of your bike's wheel, does it move?
the axle I am talking about is at the mid point between the shoulders at the base of the neck. There is no body part that traces the plane except the HANDS. The 'spoke' runs from that 'stable' center, to the HANDS, perpendicular to the shoulder line at impact, fully straight at both arms straight.
It is the line of force, the aiming point is this perpendicular line to the shoulders.
If you understood lag and geometry, you would see that we are swinging INSIDE the circle, which has a 'maximum' radius of both arms straight. If you stayed on the circles edge during the entire swing, you would never have lag. The clubhead, and hence also the hands, must be inside the circle until full extension.
EdStraker
New
The low point of the swing is below the outside edge of the left shoulder, meaning that you want to strike the ball just before this point and NOT at the midpoint between the shoulders. To me, this indicates the fulcrum of the swing is the left shoulder.
When I learned this, my ballstriking and lag improved considerably.
When I learned this, my ballstriking and lag improved considerably.
OK - when are the hands the farthest from the body?
answer - both arms straight
think about it, think about lag, and that the club only knows what the hands tell it. Ponder aiming point, and why both arms straight is so important - Homer described what I am talking about, he just didn't realize it, but he did understand that both arms straight was so important, he was almost there
let me say again, nothing I am saying is in conflict with what TGM describes as impact position, nothing
answer - both arms straight
think about it, think about lag, and that the club only knows what the hands tell it. Ponder aiming point, and why both arms straight is so important - Homer described what I am talking about, he just didn't realize it, but he did understand that both arms straight was so important, he was almost there
let me say again, nothing I am saying is in conflict with what TGM describes as impact position, nothing
cmat
New
Maybe I am crazy for posting this as my first post, but I think that both of the theories are part right, part wrong. A golf swing is not a perfect circle because the center of rotation, the left shoulder, moves around the spine during the pivot. I am by no means a golf pro or for that matter a very good golfer, but I do have an engineering degree and know a little bit about physics and geometry. It does seem to me that the forward portion of the swing more closely resembles a circle, after the pivot. However, you cannot use 'left arm and clubshaft' as a radius because this is not a straight line. The straightest line would be the one between the center of shoulder rotation and a spot on the clubhead (hopefully this spot is the sweet spot!) The swing would more closely be represented by a stretched circle rather than an ellipse because there are not 2 independent centers of rotation, because the left shoulder moves toward the target on the downswing as the body pivots.
Does this make sense?
Does this make sense?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The left arm and club (Primary Lever Assembly) is not a straight line??
- Status