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More than 4 Accumulators??
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David Alford
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6bee, you're launched into yet another personal attack. Debate the issue or don't respond.
As to your specific question, we can only speculate. I'd guess HK would have immediately said "Yes, but..."
"Yes, point taken...but there is always something to add. Maybe in the next edition..."
As to your specific question, we can only speculate. I'd guess HK would have immediately said "Yes, but..."
"Yes, point taken...but there is always something to add. Maybe in the next edition..."
David Alford
New
Nat, re: "Power Accumulators are "areas of force production"....muscle,velocity,transfer, and radius.....
BTW if you use the flattening right wrist as a power acccumulator ...good luck fixing the bent plane lines that will result...diifferent planelines, angles of approach, and clubhshaft leans require different degrees of right wrist bend!!!"
With #5, ALONE I can probably hit the ball at least 30 yds, maybe 100 yds. Ditto for #6.
I'm not sure why the term "flattening" is now being substituted for "straightening".
When I said #5 is the straightening of the right wrist, it is EXACTLY the way Brian described straighening of the
left wrist in his video. Remember he said, mostly a duffer with a strong grip would use this one? Those comments
equally apply to #5.
I don't advise either of them, in fact, I avoid it. So, I agree with some of your comments. I'm just saying, a full discussion on power accumulators should include them.
#6, the rotation of the rt. hand has more application.
BTW if you use the flattening right wrist as a power acccumulator ...good luck fixing the bent plane lines that will result...diifferent planelines, angles of approach, and clubhshaft leans require different degrees of right wrist bend!!!"
With #5, ALONE I can probably hit the ball at least 30 yds, maybe 100 yds. Ditto for #6.
I'm not sure why the term "flattening" is now being substituted for "straightening".
When I said #5 is the straightening of the right wrist, it is EXACTLY the way Brian described straighening of the
left wrist in his video. Remember he said, mostly a duffer with a strong grip would use this one? Those comments
equally apply to #5.
I don't advise either of them, in fact, I avoid it. So, I agree with some of your comments. I'm just saying, a full discussion on power accumulators should include them.
#6, the rotation of the rt. hand has more application.
David Alford
New
You know what...I've been revisiting my "memory banks". I remember I figured out #5 and #6 years ago. I can hit perfect golf shots with either one of them. As nice as you would like. I ended up rejecting them, because I felt they required too much practice and would never be an ideal solution for the average golfer. They are definitely valid. You don't want to employ them early in the downswing, though.
David Alford
New
Oh, and I guarantee you I can revise those old swings within "seconds". 6bee, you need to visit.
quote:Originally posted by David Alford
You know what...I've been revisiting my "memory banks". I remember I figured out #5 and #6 years ago. I can hit perfect golf shots with either one of them. As nice as you would like. I ended up rejecting them, because I felt they required too much practice and would never be an ideal solution for the average golfer. They are definitely valid. You don't want to employ them early in the downswing, though.
David,
Bear in mind that Mr. Kelley based everything on certain constraints - the 3 Imperatives. Is your #5 consistent with the First Imperative? And how does your #6 differ from Accumulator #3?
quote:Originally posted by TGMfan
quote:Originally posted by David Alford
You know what...I've been revisiting my "memory banks". I remember I figured out #5 and #6 years ago. I can hit perfect golf shots with either one of them. As nice as you would like. I ended up rejecting them, because I felt they required too much practice and would never be an ideal solution for the average golfer. They are definitely valid. You don't want to employ them early in the downswing, though.
David,
Bear in mind that Mr. Kelley based everything on certain constraints - the 3 Imperatives. Is your #5 consistent with the First Imperative? And how does your #6 differ from Accumulator #3?
TGM you are correct- all of David's faulty accumulators (leaks) violate the three Imperatives. Case close on that.
David, you always put your self on a high pedestal.
1-You think you can attend an AI summit and debate TGM in front of them with Brian. You don’t know the book so how could you.
2- You have ball striking ability better than Hogan.
3- You think Homer Kelly will “Immediately” except your Leaking Accumulators and publish them. I bet you think he will put your name on the cover too.
4- You independently discovered (in your mind) the same thing Homer Kelly researched for 30 years in less time. And better.
The list goes on.
Of all the knowledgeable people on this forum (you aren’t one btw). NAT is the only one that can take a discussion beyond what Mr. Kelly did...and.. he knows the difference between exploring new areas and building on TGM, rather then, as you do, sophomorically think that you are filling in gaps Homer failed to see and think it would be included. That is the mind of an egotist, a high pedestal resident.
If you knew any of the book or even what Brain, Lynn and Ben teach- you would know ten times what you know now.
As I have asked you to do for so many years, post your swing – any one of the dozens you know. What a great web site you can build with all of them and really for once teach the world the ways of David. And write a book and drop TGM from being the best thing in Golfdom.
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
My turn, my turn. You talk about the right wrist straightening as apower accumulator. It appears you define it 2 different ways from the way I read it. 1-it sounds like you are describing right wrist cocking and uncocking. If so than no, because the right wrist is always level during the swing. Remember, we are dealing with the primary lever assembly and flat left wrist or its equivilent (which is the blade of the hinge). You can't bend the hinge blade otherwise you destroy the hinge. Or, are you talking about the right wrist flattening? Again, screwing up the hinge. If the right wrist flattens then the left bends sending the club past the hands which causes the club to slow down. So, it's not producing power it is producing deceleration.
Right wrist roll...again primary lever assembly flat left wrist is what we are concerned with so it is classified according to left wrist roll. Both hands are on the club so the right must roll if the left does. And, in case you want to get cute and say what if the guy only has a right arm. The right arm becomes the PLA and the same apply for it.
Accumulator #4. the left arm blasting off the chest. the whole pivot or parts of the pivot can create it. That's what it is, the pivot thrusting the left arm.
Right wrist roll...again primary lever assembly flat left wrist is what we are concerned with so it is classified according to left wrist roll. Both hands are on the club so the right must roll if the left does. And, in case you want to get cute and say what if the guy only has a right arm. The right arm becomes the PLA and the same apply for it.
Accumulator #4. the left arm blasting off the chest. the whole pivot or parts of the pivot can create it. That's what it is, the pivot thrusting the left arm.
#1 Accumulator...Muscle Power...Linear Force
#2 Accumulator....Velocity Power....Arc Velocity
#3 Accumulator.....Transfer Power....Angular Velocity
#4 Accumulator.....Radius Power.....Extending the "Effective" Radius
#1 Muscle - Is linear force driving the Lever System in a circle. Thus using a linear force to increase the angular velocity of the Lever System to increase the Arc Velocity of the orbiting clubhead...Usually some type of Centrepetal Motion is needed to divert this linear motion and to sustain the orbit ...Shoulder,Hip,Leg, and Foot Action....the Purpose of a Pivot
#2 Velocity - Using the left wrist for the right handed golfer to change the length of an "adjustable" radius...Results in an increase in Arc Velocity and Effective Mass that is proportional to the lenghtnening of this Shortened radius to a longer radius...
#3 Transfer - Any residual velocity left over from the increase of Arc Velocity of #2 needs to be sustained and tranferred as to maintain both the Angular Velocity of the Lever System and the constant Arc Velocity of the orbiting Clubhead.....
]
#4 Radius - The "geometrical" radius is formed by the Left Arm and Clubshaft and is geomaetricly longest when "In-line". However this geometric radius can be made "effectively" longer by the gear train or Pivot Train of the Pivot Components...The Pivot or the Body is a linkage sytem of joints and segment angles....Therefore by transferring motion throughout the system through the Shoulders, Hips ,Knees, and Ankles...the geometric radius is thus extended by this system all the way into the feet and into the Ground...By ommitting Foot Action..you shorten this effective radius, ommitting knee action...even shorter, ommitting the hip action...even more shorter...then by ommiting shoulder motion on the geometric radius can swing independently from the shoulder or be driven by the right forearm/triceps straightening right arm ...
Thus the 4 primary areas of power by the power package.....
Now...
With all due respect....
Explain how both ...a straighening/flattening right wrist and rolling the right forearm as newly "discovered" accumulators affect:
The following rules of force and motion: Arc Velocity,Angular Velocity,Arc Acceleration, Angular Acceleration, Geometric Radius, Effective Radius, Radius of Gyration,Effective Mass, Moment of Inertia, Torgue, etc...
In the event that your discoveries are validated by these rules...I will be the first to commend your discoveries....
You do not need to prove anything to anyone on these forums...
I know that you are indeed an intelligent and bright mind....
I applaud your efforts to be innovative and cutting edge...
Keep up the good work...
Just don't publish until all bases are covered...
Then....and only then.... let the revolt begin!!!!
NAT
#2 Accumulator....Velocity Power....Arc Velocity
#3 Accumulator.....Transfer Power....Angular Velocity
#4 Accumulator.....Radius Power.....Extending the "Effective" Radius
#1 Muscle - Is linear force driving the Lever System in a circle. Thus using a linear force to increase the angular velocity of the Lever System to increase the Arc Velocity of the orbiting clubhead...Usually some type of Centrepetal Motion is needed to divert this linear motion and to sustain the orbit ...Shoulder,Hip,Leg, and Foot Action....the Purpose of a Pivot
#2 Velocity - Using the left wrist for the right handed golfer to change the length of an "adjustable" radius...Results in an increase in Arc Velocity and Effective Mass that is proportional to the lenghtnening of this Shortened radius to a longer radius...
#3 Transfer - Any residual velocity left over from the increase of Arc Velocity of #2 needs to be sustained and tranferred as to maintain both the Angular Velocity of the Lever System and the constant Arc Velocity of the orbiting Clubhead.....
]
#4 Radius - The "geometrical" radius is formed by the Left Arm and Clubshaft and is geomaetricly longest when "In-line". However this geometric radius can be made "effectively" longer by the gear train or Pivot Train of the Pivot Components...The Pivot or the Body is a linkage sytem of joints and segment angles....Therefore by transferring motion throughout the system through the Shoulders, Hips ,Knees, and Ankles...the geometric radius is thus extended by this system all the way into the feet and into the Ground...By ommitting Foot Action..you shorten this effective radius, ommitting knee action...even shorter, ommitting the hip action...even more shorter...then by ommiting shoulder motion on the geometric radius can swing independently from the shoulder or be driven by the right forearm/triceps straightening right arm ...
Thus the 4 primary areas of power by the power package.....
Now...
With all due respect....
Explain how both ...a straighening/flattening right wrist and rolling the right forearm as newly "discovered" accumulators affect:
The following rules of force and motion: Arc Velocity,Angular Velocity,Arc Acceleration, Angular Acceleration, Geometric Radius, Effective Radius, Radius of Gyration,Effective Mass, Moment of Inertia, Torgue, etc...
In the event that your discoveries are validated by these rules...I will be the first to commend your discoveries....
You do not need to prove anything to anyone on these forums...
I know that you are indeed an intelligent and bright mind....
I applaud your efforts to be innovative and cutting edge...
Keep up the good work...
Just don't publish until all bases are covered...
Then....and only then.... let the revolt begin!!!!
NAT
David Alford
New
Nat, I didn't say they were newly discovered. #5 and #6 have been around probably as long as golf has been played.
No, I'm not going to write several hundred pages discussing those topics here. Thanx for your other comments and not
following the lynch mentality here.
No, I'm not going to write several hundred pages discussing those topics here. Thanx for your other comments and not
following the lynch mentality here.
David Alford
New
6bee, don't ever work in science, your distortions, lies, and exaggerations wouldn't go far. You really have a vendetta going here...other critics have made the trip to see me, you can too. My swing sequences have been published in rec.sport.golf. First hand reports on my ball striking were also published there.
I'll be glad to publish my swing sequence here under two simple conditions:
1) HK's swing sequence is put up as well - it's on Yoda's site if anyone is curious, but I would like them side by side.
2) You submit yours.
I'll be glad to publish my swing sequence here under two simple conditions:
1) HK's swing sequence is put up as well - it's on Yoda's site if anyone is curious, but I would like them side by side.
2) You submit yours.
David Alford
New
Now let me address the general reader who may be following this topic. All you have to do is going to the driving range or go out in your back yard and tee up a ball. Then hit it with just straightening the right wrist (from a cocked wrist), nothing else. Does the ball move? If so, you have demonstrated the reality of accumulator #5.
Now repeat with rolling the right wrist. Does the ball move? If so you have demonstrated the reality of accumulator #6.
Now repeat with rolling the right wrist. Does the ball move? If so you have demonstrated the reality of accumulator #6.
David Alford
New
Of course, use a golf club! By "nothing else", I mean don't use other accumulators.
David Alford
New
TGMfan wrote:
<David, Bear in mind that Mr. Kelley based everything on certain constraints - the 3 Imperatives. Is your #5 consistent with the First Imperative? And how does your #6 differ from Accumulator #3?>
#5 is exactly the same as #2 except the right powers it instead of the left. If you agree #2 is consistent with the first imperative, then so is number #5. It really depends upon HOW and WHEN they are employed.
#6 is exactly the same as #3 except the right hand (or, alternatively rt. forearm) muscles are used instead of the left.
People, if you accept #2, you must accept #5. If you accept #3, you must accept #6. Or be in denial.
<David, Bear in mind that Mr. Kelley based everything on certain constraints - the 3 Imperatives. Is your #5 consistent with the First Imperative? And how does your #6 differ from Accumulator #3?>
#5 is exactly the same as #2 except the right powers it instead of the left. If you agree #2 is consistent with the first imperative, then so is number #5. It really depends upon HOW and WHEN they are employed.
#6 is exactly the same as #3 except the right hand (or, alternatively rt. forearm) muscles are used instead of the left.
People, if you accept #2, you must accept #5. If you accept #3, you must accept #6. Or be in denial.
David Alford
New
Note: I am using the definitions of #2 and #3 as defined by Brian in his video clip on power accumulators. If you have a dispute with these definitions, take it up with Brian, not me.
David Alford
New
6bee, in the future, please take your personal attacks out of this discussion. I'll do the same with my rebuttals. They don't relate to power accumulators. If you have a complaint, get my email or phone # from Brain and you can discuss it with me in person.
David Alford
New
sorry, from Biran....lol, BRIAN.
quote:Originally posted by David Alford
#5 is exactly the same as #2 except the right powers it instead of the left. If you agree #2 is consistent with the first imperative, then so is number #5. It really depends upon HOW and WHEN they are employed.
David,
It seems that you're confusing the Accumulator (out-of-line condition) with its Release. If your #5 is formed by the same angle between the left forearm and clubshaft as #2, then they're the same Accunulator. It doesn't matter (as far as Accumulators go) whether you release it with your right wrist, your left wrist, or just let Centrifugal Force do it - you're not defining a new Accumulator.
There's some disagreement on exactly what #3 is, so it's hard to know whether the same reasoning would invalidate your #6, but I suspect it's nothing new, either.
David Alford
New
Well wait a minute...if they are the same accumulators...everybody (above) who claims #5 and #6 violate all of HK's imperatives, screws up the hinge, etc. etc. would be wrong!! How funny!
An interesting dilemma!
To partially answer your question, TGMfan, I am only working from Brian's video. Brian did not define the accumulators as an out of line condition only. He used them in the sense of being released, from out of line to in line. In all the congrats to his video, no one said he got it backward. Did he?
An interesting dilemma!
To partially answer your question, TGMfan, I am only working from Brian's video. Brian did not define the accumulators as an out of line condition only. He used them in the sense of being released, from out of line to in line. In all the congrats to his video, no one said he got it backward. Did he?
David Alford
New
What I find almost "jaw dropping" is the amount of contradictions and confusion amongst TGMers on HK's defintions and useage.
Look, I have PURPOSEDLY avoided TGM because I wanted to figure everything out myself. So of course, I don't know the book's definitions.
What is absolutely astonishing is that those who have studied TGM so religiously can't even agree on something so simple as to what HK meant by the 4 power accumulators! Jeeze, guys...!
Look, I have PURPOSEDLY avoided TGM because I wanted to figure everything out myself. So of course, I don't know the book's definitions.
What is absolutely astonishing is that those who have studied TGM so religiously can't even agree on something so simple as to what HK meant by the 4 power accumulators! Jeeze, guys...!
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