Project 1.68 Data Share - TUG & TUMBLE

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Michael Jacobs

Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
Rummaging through some information to answer a question from a golf pro, I thought I should share some of the Project 1.68 Data Pool that has been collected. For the record, you would have NO SHOT at this info with VIDEO :p

So Tug and Tumble

Enjoy and more to come

The interaction between the thorax and the lead arm is a huge part of the swing. The separation stretch that takes place at the lead shoulder is a very brief one and we can see huge differences in this area with varying levels of golfers. Inconsistent ball strikers stretch at the lead arm too long or not at ALL! and their thorax tugs their lead arm down, great strikers have an almost instantaneous stretch and then the lead arm's acceleration rate is very close to the thorax in the early stage of the downswing. Here are 2 graphs that isolate Thorax and Lead Arm. Thorax is Red and Green is Lead Arm. Top is signified by when the club reverses in direction. Note not only the transition and downswing velocities but also their velocities on the backswing.

These are of 2 tour players - One of which was #1 in the world and the other was in the Top 5 in world rankings. These were taken with the 12 sensor 3D system, Kvest has only 3 sensors so the lead arm is not in the data.


seqthroxldarm.jpgthroaxarmseq.jpg
 
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lia41985

lia41985

New member
Richard Franklin discussed this in June. I knew it had to do with tugging :)
Richard Franklin said:
I was fortunate enough to be a part of Brian and Mikes golf school this weekend.. The following is a stream of consciousness from 30,000 feet on my away back to Chicago.

- 12 sensor motion capture is ridiculously impressive. The breadth of coverage is astounding; there is quantified values for so many aspects of golf swing related movement. I am inspired to purchase a k vest. I plan on treating students movement as I do their impact with Flightscope; no more guessing (I'll have more on that).

-sequence, Ipsi stretch, back extension, and so much more

Biggest nuggets for me from the 3D ... I had the spine figured wrong... I was under the impression that for the sake of being "centered" ( every time I said that word mike appeared a little nauceous) the golfer must add in side bend AND a decent amount of back extension . Without these elements the golfer would surely have that dreaded overly rightward lean at the top with full retention of forward bend. 4 deg. Maximum back extension value for the top of swing. 4 f'n degrees. Wowee. Back to the drawing board on that one. Basically how I'm looking at spine/ centering stuff is that you should take your forward bend value of an orthodox setup , side bend that amount, dont sway/ overturn, and you've got a pretty good feel for backswing torso movement.

Easily the most interesting part (from a teachers perspective ) of the weekend was an unnamed students diagnosis from Brian and mike. Let's call this gentlemen Pete. Pete had a long swing and for a big piece of meat didn't hit it very far.. Brian had first crack at him.. Poor grip, hip spin, lack of late trail bend (I'm going to stop saying axis tilt, starting now; doesn't seem to make sense anymore ) I regress, Brian and TM do there thing.. Candy Cane hips, heel pad, and some extra sprinkles. Great lesson, and TM verifies it. Pete goes to 3D...grossly over pivoting (Brian had tightened it in some as well), 118 degrees of thorax rotation , and plus 10 back extension. Okay so now we've got the whole picture. Pete could go play great with his TM session, but now he really knows why he can't stop his swing from going astray more often than he would like. His over pivot was getting one number to jump of the screen.. Ipsi directional stretch time . This value measures total and duration of shoulder stretch when the the lead arm and thorax are moving in the same direction on the downswing. Pete's duration of Ipsi stretch was LONG. You see what's happening. Pete was substituting turn with back extension, had a mile to the ball and was having to arm drag for days.. As mike pointed out this was a long dainty swing.. Not utlilizing stretch - shortening , no decel, etc. Mike and Brian got on the same page had a duel with session with Pete, and he received one of the most comprehensive lessons you could ever imagine. He has a long term goal to understand how is pivot has to work, as well as some easy to digest pieces to get his d plane tidy. He got better that day and the improvement will sustain itself.

I've got more if people want to hear.. For now my iPad is out of juice and we're about to land.
Click to expand...

lia41985 said:
Thanks for this, Richard. Lots of "tug" science built into your posts as well as Rick's.
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tongzilla

tongzilla

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Michael Jacobs said:
Inconsistent ball strikers stretch at the lead arm too long and their thorax tugs their lead arm down, great strikers have an almost instantaneous stretch and then the lead arm's acceleration rate is very close to the thorax in the early stage of the downswing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info MJ.

To clarify- for 'inconsistent ball strikers', their lead arm is faster or slower than thorax?

What's the scale on the y-axis?
 
magicmarker

magicmarker

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sounds like it is neither faster or slower. it is just that the lead arm doesn't begin accelerating as soon as it should. would be nice to see the graph of the inconsistent ball strikers thrown in there for comparison.
 
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M

Mike Richardson

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magicmarker said:
sounds like it is neither faster or slower. it is just that the lead arm doesn't begin accelerating as fast as it should. would be nice to see the graph of the inconsistent ball strikers thrown in there for comparison.
Click to expand...

Yes it would because, for inconsistent ball strikers, you'd think that, if they were just using their thorax to tug the left arm, the thorax and left arm would move/accelerate at the same speed.
 
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wulsy

New
How many guys had sussed this out without all the measuring? I think more than you think.;) Ever head of Leonardo Da Vinci?
 
magicmarker

magicmarker

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Mike Richardson said:
Yes it would because, for inconsistent ball strikers, you'd think that, if they were just using their thorax to tug the left arm, the thorax and left arm would move/accelerate at the same speed.
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Yes what would?

acceleration is a rate not a speed. similar to how the inside and outside of a fan accelerate at the same rate but have a different speed.

I will edit my earlier post, I think I see the confusion.
 
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Tony D'Antonio

New
I really want to thank Brian and Michael and Kevin and all the rest of the instructors on this site. I play off and on these days but I am able to get back some semblance of ball striking within a few swings because of all the new data and new swing thoughts and drills you folks bring to this site (like the ones in this thread). I played Monday with my son (at beautiful Lincoln Park in San Francisco) and we were both trying to swing more left to correct the push fade we both have. A combination of more arm swing (ie. less concentration on turning left) and MORE TUMBLE (a swing thought I NEVER EVER would have had in the 'old' days) fixed me and my son right up. I went from hitting push fades to beautiful little draws, and I never hit beautiful little draws.
Thank you all again.
 
J

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Graphs are great.

When should the left arm start moving? What is the stretch? Is it when you feel a sense of stress on the lead shoulder? At that point should their be conscious effort to speed the lead arm?

The above is what I got from the posts. I just want to make sure I'm right.
 
M

Mike Richardson

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magicmarker said:
Yes what would?

acceleration is a rate not a speed. similar to how the inside and outside of a fan accelerate at the same rate but have a different speed.

I will edit my earlier post, I think I see the confusion.
Click to expand...

I meant it would be nice to see inconsitent ball striker data.

But thanks for the clarification.
 
M

Mike Richardson

New
wulsy said:
How many guys had sussed this out without all the measuring? I think more than you think.;) Ever head of Leonardo Da Vinci?
Click to expand...

Yeah but IMO it's pretty useful to have feels or actions backed up by scientific data. For myself then I'm more likely to stick with something rather than treat it as a "thought for the day".

What did Leonardo play off?
 
W

wulsy

New
Allegedly he could play off scratch left and right handed whilst painting masterpieces and smoking a reefer. But the man was a genius.

For sure I love to read this scientific info, you can always learn something from it. However, if you can clear your mind of the boolsheet of the past the real info is not really that hard to suss out if you have the right kind if background. But the key is to clear your mind.
 
L

Lindsey Newman

New
Jared Willerson said:
Graphs are great.

When should the left arm start moving? What is the stretch? Is it when you feel a sense of stress on the lead shoulder? At that point should their be conscious effort to speed the lead arm?

The above is what I got from the posts. I just want to make sure I'm right.
Click to expand...

I would love to here the interpretation of the data as well.

Thanks in advance (which is really me saying "please")
 
magicmarker

magicmarker

New
Thanks MJ. Appreciate it.

Can you provide some insight into the post impact spike in the graph being relatively higher in the inconsistent player.
 
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