Sergio Garcia & The Tumble

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Less than a full shoulder turn? Strengthen your grip, bow your left wrist or play a fade.

i think Tiger does a pretty good job of using #4
 
L

Lindsey Newman

New
ms1170 said:
This has been a great thread. With some great posts from Kevin and Lindsey. I have some observations and a few questions that will hopefully lead to additional posts.

1. Verticle left arm.

Garcia, Fowler and Kuchar all turn their shoulders more than 90 degrees in the backswing. This ensures that the 1st move down with their shoulders is lower and out towards the ball. This would seem to be a huge advantage in getting to that “Verticle’ left arm position at last parallel point. Most players begin the downswing with the left shoulder moving back and up. Any recommendations for players with less than 90 degrees of shoulder turn?

2. Level shoulders, Arm position at top of backswing, #4 accumulator.

Kevin mentions “Level” shoulders at last parallel. Both Garcia and Fowler keep their right arm in front of them at the top of the backswing and don’t get their left arm across their chest. It would seem that to get to last parallel with level shoulders, the left arm has to be quite a bit off the chest. Jim Furyk with less shoulder turn has the left arm across the chest at the top of the backswing and all the way to impact. He also has a much higher left shoulder at last parallel. (He also has one more major and soon to be player of the year awards than these other two guys. I can’t believe he’s not playing tomorrow morning.)

Questions:

Should players with shoulder turns smaller than Garcia and Fowler, swing their arms farther in the backswing or more across the chest.

Is Jim Furyk minimizing #4 accumulator keeping his left arm tight to his chest? Who is a tour example of someone that maximizes #4?

I look forward to all your responses, and apologize if it’s already been covered.
Click to expand...

I just think it important to find a position for the hands near the transition point, that would allow you to have a vertical hand path. The more vertical the hand path should allow an easier tumble or at the very least, help prevent backing up the shaft.

As far as maximizing#4 I think Kenny Perry is a great example.

I tend to agree with Kevin, strong grip to of offset out hand path and backed up under plane shaft. This is not always the case, but it seems common when folks attempt a pure rotary, super open chest, max forward lean type swing.
 
Last edited:
L

Lindsey Newman

New
ms1170 said:
Could you explain "Backed up" shaft? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Backed up shaft is explained somewhere in this thread pretty thoroughly, but basically it is when the shaft is working in an opposite manner from the top down. Instead of swing out to the ball from hip high down,the shaft and clubhead bend back away from the ball, opening the face.
 
M

ms1170

New
Apparently I've been under plane, with an open face since the Reagan administration. It would seem that a late #3 accumulator roll would make consistent ball flight difficult. Would this late roll also cause the club to move even more inside out?
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
ms1170 said:
Apparently I've been under plane, with an open face since the Reagan administration. It would seem that a late #3 accumulator roll would make consistent ball flight difficult. Would this late roll also cause the club to move even more inside out?
Click to expand...

Not that im aware of
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

New
Kevin Shields said:
Not that im aware of
Click to expand...

Thinking about it...I think it might.

I'm imagining the left elbow as a kind of pivot point for that full roll. If that pivot point stays put, allowing the roll to happen more distinctly, the path should be skewed out to the right slightly more than if that pivot point were dragged forward or around the body to the left.

I could explain a lot better with a diagram, and I'm not even sure I'm right, but it makes sense in my own mind. :) Maybe somebody else out there has something on this?
 
L

Lindsey Newman

New
ms1170 said:
Apparently I've been under plane, with an open face since the Reagan administration. It would seem that a late #3 accumulator roll would make consistent ball flight difficult. Would this late roll also cause the club to move even more inside out?
Click to expand...

As opposed to what?
 
L

Lindsey Newman

New
ms1170 said:
As opposed to someone under plane with a very strong grip and very little #3
Click to expand...

The greatest challenge is controlling the torque you apply to the butt end of the club. Obviously if you drag the butt end horizontally the shaft (for a good player) will react by falling backward and getting under as well as open the face. I can understand how you would think that tumble could be very inconsistent and reliant on timing. I always though that any discussion around hands and arms was for "flippers".

In my mind tumble is just allowing the shaft and face to work back to the ball as they did going into the backswing. I am not suggesting rotating the shaft about itself as much as just try to apply the whole flying wedge. In my mind rotating the shaft about itself does sound dangerously inconsistent.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
The clubhead will beat the pivot/golfer to the ball and it will either hook or the club just gets stuck in the ground (see Tiger 3 woods). Hard to over tumble without either being very strong, undynamic, or backing the left hip up and getting forward axis tilt.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

New
Kevin Shields said:
The clubhead will beat the pivot/golfer to the ball and it will either hook or the club just gets stuck in the ground (see Tiger 3 woods). Hard to over tumble without either being very strong, undynamic, or backing the left hip up and getting forward axis tilt.
Click to expand...

I was shanking it last night and despite being perfectly on plane at the delivery position I was delivering the hosel to the ball. But dang it I was no longer under plane so the tumble action was working a bit.
 
L

Lindsey Newman

New
gmbtempe said:
I was shanking it last night and despite being perfectly on plane at the delivery position I was delivering the hosel to the ball. But dang it I was no longer under plane so the tumble action was working a bit.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you were adding an outward hand path. Try to stay turned at the top and drop your hands more vertically while tumbling. Just my opinion of course - Kevin?.......
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Gmbtempe always stands too close to the ball to accomodate humping it and standing the handle up. I like that it got you out from under though, big first step.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

New
I fixed it, I just added a little to much of a good thing. Did not have a camera set up so only can use impact and ball flight to judge but I was hitting a high fade which as Kevin could attest has never been possible before with my swing.

I like the idea of the tumble though as a way to keep on plane. I assume though if one comes into the delivery position to high and then tumbles on top of it then its going to produce once heck of a pull or a shank.
 
S

spktho

New
gmbtempe said:
I like the idea of the tumble though as a way to keep on plane. I assume though if one comes into the delivery position to high and then tumbles on top of it then its going to produce once heck of a pull or a shank.
Click to expand...

If you mean too high as being little axis tilt, then that's what my trouble has been. From the suggestion by Jim, I've been working on the hip turn back and expanding the left side with the left hip bump into the downswing. It seems by doing this, you can tumble and turn around the left leg hard with less a chance of hitting it left.

My problem has been the opposite of yours though, I tend to come over the top.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

New
spktho said:
If you mean too high as being little axis tilt, then that's what my trouble has been. From the suggestion by Jim, I've been working on the hip turn back and expanding the left side with the left hip bump into the downswing. It seems by doing this, you can tumble and turn around the left leg hard with less a chance of hitting it left.

My problem has been the opposite of yours though, I tend to come over the top.
Click to expand...

I mean too high with the right forearm pointing well outside the delivery line, tumble with that combination is going to send the clubhead well outside the plane (??? is this correct, thats my interpretation). Axis tilt is a very tricky thing and can mean many different things to many swings.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top