Sergio Garcia & The Tumble

[caedus]

My thoughts on tumble...

IMHO-Every good golf swing (relative) has some form of tumble.

A very important thing to always remember is that the shaft and the clubface are married. I say this only because when you steepen the shaft you are also squaring the face (ideally).

like a car (hands/arms) pulling a trailor (shaft/clubhead) you must initially pull the trilior in the correct direction so when the trailor comes unhitched (as we have learned in this forum) it continues in the right direction

Most folks never get to expirience tumble. Why? Horizontal, out or high hand path in the downswing.

If your left arm is not as vertical as possible at last parallel and you try to tumble you will hit some super steep shots or skanks. So the first key is to have a good hand path.

If you look at the most envied swings, you will typically see super vert hand paths coming down that allow the player to steepen the shaft/face combination as much as they want. They have zero concerns of skanking it or hitting it steep. They typically have a more neutral grip so the shaft can tumble as much as they want without fear of a hook. Players with good hand paths have a few of options on how they tumble the shaft/clubface combo.

Option 1 - Hogan - ish, Sergio - they have a model or low left arm position at the top and a great closed counterfall transition which puts them WAY DOWN close to the original shaft plane LINE early. From there this type of player uses both hands and right shoulder to steepen the shaft back into the ball while also squaring the face.

Option 2 -Nicklausian - Watson - They have a higher left arm position at the top. Same great counterfall, but because of the higher position at the top, they never get the shaft as close to the original shaft plane LINE. Therefore they cannot hit as much with the right shoulder and instead soley use the down pressure from the arms to steppen/tumble the shaft.

You also have a varient of strong grip players like a Duval and maybe even Azinger who have really only one option. They swing the clubhead out or steepen (kind of) with only the right shoulder. Why? because the strong grip does not allow them to truly steepen the shaft. They would be prone to pull hook if they used a model steepening action.


So what are the keys IMO?

Have a grip that allow you to steepen the shaft without fear of hitting it left.

have an incredible (maybe feeling closed) counterfall transition that keeps the hand path inside and a left arm more vertical

Then if you don't tumble/steepen the shaft you"ll hit the fattest open faced, hook shots ever.

No matter what - get into a position with your counterfall that allows you to HAVE to steepen the shaft!

For those of you that find this reply redundant, accept my apologies.

So Hogan flexed into the ground coming down with left wrist loaded / shaft whatever laid off , why wouldn't pivot thrust / coming out of the ground deliver the clubhead instead of hands and right shoulder needing to do a tumble?

 

[teeithigh]

hmm confused ...i hit my best shots when my pivot whips my arms-hands-club without consciously doing anything with the shaft..are you (lindsay) saying that we have to consciouly put force on the shaft??? is that what tumble is? guiding the shaft??

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Not sure, but whatever happens with pivot thrust there must be some force vertically pulling down on the grip end at some point. How else do you explain the dynamic steepening of the shaft in Hogans swing?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

hmm confused ...i hit my best shots when my pivot whips my arms-hands-club without consciously doing anything with the shaft..are you (lindsay) saying that we have to consciouly put force on the shaft??? is that what tumble is? guiding the shaft??

Nope I am not saying to do anything. You may be doing it already without knowing it. My posts are for the "tumble-less". I just think it's the difference between optimum ball flight and not. I believe that many people do and always have tumbled.Some folks struggle with face and shaft control and others don't.

 

[curtisj76]

Lindsey, thanks for your thoughts. I see you mentioned the dreaded shank. I've been working on a more vertical left arm for the past week. I'm either hitting the best shots of my life or shanking it. Yesterday I went to the range and started hitting the best PW shots ever. Then grabbed my 7 iron and the very first shot was a shank. Then proceeded to hit 15 shanks in a row, not 1 decent hit. Went back to the PW and continued to shank the ball. Any ideas? I was so frustrated after just hitting the longest, highest, straightest pw's of my life.

BTW I've had 2 range sessions exactly like this. Very frustrating!

 

[golfie]

Hogan's shaft steepened? Could you show an example?

 

[caedus]

Not sure, but whatever happens with pivot thrust there must be some force vertically pulling down on the grip end at some point. How else do you explain the dynamic steepening of the shaft in Hogans swing?

If the left wrist is already being bent in the top end of the swing and start down why would that not already "build in" the vertical pulling down( hands) along with the pivot?

 

[holeout]

Lindsey, thanks for your thoughts. I see you mentioned the dreaded shank. I've been working on a more vertical left arm for the past week. I'm either hitting the best shots of my life or shanking it. Yesterday I went to the range and started hitting the best PW shots ever. Then grabbed my 7 iron and the very first shot was a shank. Then proceeded to hit 15 shanks in a row, not 1 decent hit. Went back to the PW and continued to shank the ball. Any ideas? I was so frustrated after just hitting the longest, highest, straightest pw's of my life.

BTW I've had 2 range sessions exactly like this. Very frustrating!

You are possibly adding too much axis tilt early in the downswing. Either that or your grip is too strong and you're keeping it too closed at the top, forcing you to work under it some trying to keep it open.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Lindsey, thanks for your thoughts. I see you mentioned the dreaded shank. I've been working on a more vertical left arm for the past week. I'm either hitting the best shots of my life or shanking it. Yesterday I went to the range and started hitting the best PW shots ever. Then grabbed my 7 iron and the very first shot was a shank. Then proceeded to hit 15 shanks in a row, not 1 decent hit. Went back to the PW and continued to shank the ball. Any ideas? I was so frustrated after just hitting the longest, highest, straightest pw's of my life.

BTW I've had 2 range sessions exactly like this. Very frustrating!

Keep in mind I am not a teaching pro.

This sounds very much like you have an initial out move with you hand path from the top, but more likely you are backing the shaft up or reverse tumbling where the shaft and clubhead is backing up instead of swinging out. You could be doing both!

No promises, but keep your hand path and left arm vertical as possible coming down. Now as counter intuitive as it sounds, allow the shaft to steepen like you were going to stick it vertically into the ground on your toe line all the way thru impact. Now if you get steep impact you know your hands are moving out and if you get too much curvature work on the grip till it does what you want.

Just my opinion ofcourse.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Hogan's shaft steepened? Could you show an example?

Believe me, I wish I could, but do to my current lack of software on my new computer I cannot. If you have DTL video of Hogan, pay close attention to the angle of the shaft after transition. You'll see it very horizontal and by impact it is not (more diagonal). That's steepening, that's tumble!

 

[jenhaoyen]

Believe me, I wish I could, but do to my current lack of software on my new computer I cannot. If you have DTL video of Hogan, pay close attention to the angle of the shaft after transition. You'll see it very horizontal and by impact it is not (more diagonal). That's steepening, that's tumble!

I think the only Chapter people should read on his book is the grip section.

Everything else is really just his "FEEL". Not real.

 

[ej20]

Hogan laid the shaft off on the transition.Sergio lays it off even more.To get to the ball,the shaft needs to steepen.Stands to reason.It certainly does happen as Lindsey says.

The question is,(and I have asked this before with no answer) can this lay off move be taught to most players.... and if Lindsey's interpretation of the tumble is the same as BM's,should the tumble be done without this lay off move?

 

[drulf]

Tumble for dummies

For the village (ok, large city/ small country) idiot: how far off regarding hand path and shaft steepening would you be if you (like Joe Norwood recommended, I think) just aimed for the right heel with the butt end of the grip ?

 

[Kevin Shields]

So Hogan flexed into the ground coming down with left wrist loaded / shaft whatever laid off , why wouldn't pivot thrust / coming out of the ground deliver the clubhead instead of hands and right shoulder needing to do a tumble?

Are you saying Hogan used pivot thrust to turn the face down and nothing from the hands/arms? A pivot thrust could deliver the head but what about the face?

 

[Kevin Shields]

For the village (ok, large city/ small country) idiot: how far off regarding hand path and shaft steepening would you be if you (like Joe Norwood recommended, I think) just aimed for the right heel with the butt end of the grip ?

As long as your left shoulder didnt lift too soon. Who's Joe Norwood? The one who missed the field goal for the Bills?

Hebron also recommended the hands go back and down to start the downswing. Not to say some "carry" isnt good for people with the opposite problem, which reminds us that there is no one way.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Hogan laid the shaft off on the transition.Sergio lays it off even more.To get to the ball,the shaft needs to steepen.Stands to reason.It certainly does happen as Lindsey says.

The question is,(and I have asked this before with no answer) can this lay off move be taught to most players.... and if Lindsey's interpretation of the tumble is the same as BM's,should the tumble be done without this lay off move?

Ah, laying the shaft off at the top or in transition. Now we are moving into some good stuff. I spent many sleepless nights on the preferred position of the shaft after transition.I have always been an enormous fan of nick price's golf swing which has been a big influence in my own very indepth expirementing.I am hesitant to even go there, but here I go.

If you can get the shaft more horizontal prior to the moment you stress the shaft (starting down) you are in effect building in more room and time to tumble as hard as you want. It is my belief that if one can obtain the Hogan/Sergio 1/3 down position, you can then as Hogan said "wish you had 3 right hands". I believe when Hogan said that he was saying he could tumble the shaft, clubhead and seetspot as hard as he wanted with out fear of releasing his accumulators to early and closing the face.

Now if you shaft is already in a steeper inclination at the time you stress it coming down then you just need to keep it there, so you won't have the feeling Hogan had but you still need a little tumble to get it done.

 

[curtisj76]

Thanks guys for the advice. How about a quick definition on "pivot thrust"? Thanks

 

[caedus]

Are you saying Hogan used pivot thrust to turn the face down and nothing from the hands/arms? A pivot thrust could deliver the head but what about the face?

Why not ? if the left wrist is loaded and bent why would pivot thrust not produce a wrist throw release which would uncock / and roll

 

[alocirga]

Tiger and the tumble

Ah, laying the shaft off at the top or in transition. Now we are moving into some good stuff. I spent many sleepless nights on the preferred position of the shaft after transition.I have always been an enormous fan of nick price's golf swing which has been a big influence in my own very indepth expirementing.I am hesitant to even go there, but here I go.

If you can get the shaft more horizontal prior to the moment you stress the shaft (starting down) you are in effect building in more room and time to tumble as hard as you want. It is my belief that if one can obtain the Hogan/Sergio 1/3 down position, you can then as Hogan said "wish you had 3 right hands". I believe when Hogan said that he was saying he could tumble the shaft, clubhead and seetspot as hard as he wanted with out fear of releasing his accumulators to early and closing the face.

Now if you shaft is already in a steeper inclination at the time you stress it coming down then you just need to keep it there, so you won't have the feeling Hogan had but you still need a little tumble to get it done.

Isn't this what Tiger appears to be working on? I can't remember which round at Augusta but it was on #7 where he went left off the tee and he stood rehearsing what looked to me as his tumble.

 

[Matt 4-L]

As long as your left shoulder didnt lift too soon. Who's Joe Norwood? The one who missed the field goal for the Bills?

Hebron also recommended the hands go back and down to start the downswing. Not to say some "carry" isnt good for people with the opposite problem, which reminds us that there is no one way.

Nope, that was Scott Norwood.