Sergio Garcia & The Tumble

[drulf]

Even Mac spent some time with Mr Norwood

Golf Teaching Pros: Teachers for Golfers

He wrote perhaps the only golf book that is harder to read than Mr Kelley´s, but very interesting. Seems he got that grip toward the heel move from Vardon.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Why not ? if the left wrist is loaded and bent why would pivot thrust not produce a wrist throw release which would uncock / and roll

I'm of the opinion that throwout will produce some uncocking but zero roll.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Nope, that was Scott Norwood.

I know, i was being sarcastic. I just never heard of him.

 

[caedus]

I'm of the opinion that throwout will produce some uncocking but zero roll.

Can you explain the science of this Mr Shields? Your position is that at release point if the left wrist is bent and loaded/ cocked , that throw-out off the pivot will produce zero-roll or face closing

 

[Kevin Shields]

No science at all. If I put my face flat on the plane and use my pivot to get some throw out my wrist only uncocks against the left thumb. What would cause the roll?

Also, why would the left wrist be bent at release point, Hogan's wasnt.

 

[Shot Limit]

Ok. How do you monitor this "tumble"? If the hands are going down and left to perform the tumble, is the tumble limited by the hands going not so leftish?

 

[Matt Bryda]

What would cause the roll?

Doesn't this torque have to be put on the handle by the golfer if they can, on purpose, with a little help from gravity?

Matt

 

[Lindsey Newman]

No science at all. If I put my face flat on the plane and use my pivot to get some throw out my wrist only unlocks against the left thumb. What would cause the roll?

Also, why would the left wrist be bent at release point, Hogan's want.

I could not agree more with what Kevin is saying.

Look, every person is unique physiological speaking and also people do or do not react innately to applied force. The point of the discussion is for the "tumble-less". Many folks learn tumble without even knowing it, BUT many people spend there entire golfing life backing the shaft up under plane with out/high hands at impact. if you use rotary pivot thrust with a great hand path you may achieve some type of subconscious roll/tumble, but if those hands are moving out and the pressure on the handle is outward the safe will not tumble and has to back up without either a shank or missing the ball entirely.

 

[caedus]

No science at all. If I put my face flat on the plane and use my pivot to get some throw out my wrist only uncocks against the left thumb. What would cause the roll?

Also, why would the left wrist be bent at release point, Hogan's wasnt.

At what point did Hogan lay the face on the plane? What's your definition of release point , 1 or 2 frames before impact or HK definition ? So you saying Hogan didn't add left wrist bend at start down?
So let me understand your scientific answer , if the left wrist is just cocked then the pivot will only produce throw-out and no roll , but because there is no left wrist bend in your opinion then left wrist being bent would not produce roll- out, so it never happens, it can only happen with hands / right shoulder tumble deal?

 

[Matt 4-L]

I know, i was being sarcastic. I just never heard of him.

I know, I just had to say it....My friends and I went to the bank on that poor guys miss, everytime one of us would do something stupid we would say "don't be a Scott Norwood".

 

[Kevin Shields]

At what point did Hogan lay the face on the plane? What's your definition of release point , 1 or 2 frames before impact or HK definition ? So you saying Hogan didn't add left wrist bend at start down?
So let me understand your scientific answer , if the left wrist is just cocked then the pivot will only produce throw-out and no roll , but because there is no left wrist bend in your opinion then left wrist being bent would not produce roll- out, so it never happens, it can only happen with hands / right shoulder tumble deal?

I can see you've already formed your opinion, and you've marginalized my opinion by calling it the tumble "deal" and a "scientific answer" when I clearly said it wasnt a scientific answer. So if you think Hogan added left wrist bend in the downswing and squared the face with throwout, thats cool.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Why not ? if the left wrist is loaded and bent why would pivot thrust not produce a wrist throw release which would uncock / and roll

The force coming out of the pivot on the downswing, flat out WILL NOT square the face without some rotational torque coming from the golfer.

Period.

 

[caedus]

Nobody stated there wasn't, thats not even the topic , but you can tell me there is no face closing at all from throw-out from a bent / cocked left wrist , no problem

 

[teeithigh]

lindsey...what do u mean by many people "

 

[teeithigh]

"many people back the shaft up? here to learn...tnx

 

[Lindsey Newman]

lindsey...what do u mean by many people "

When I say "many people back the shaft up" I am referring to what many pop instructors call inside steep. After or during the transition/counterfall, if the hand path (from down the targetline view) moves on a line that is to high or on a diagonal that appears to be more horizontal than vertical, the clubhead must fall behind and thus orient the shaft under/laid off. Now the shaft/clubhead is in essence backing up. most of the time it will reslut in forcing the clubhead to open and at impact the shaft will be to vertical. When I say the shaft will be to vertical I mean that it is steeper than is designed to be at impact.

Why is this important to understand?
Example 1 - an individual has a neutral alignment to the shot, for straightish ball flight and they have this type of out/high hand path. They have to back the clubhead and shaft under that hand path to hit the ball. If they did not back it up they would either shank it or miss it entirely on the outside the target line side of the ball. Many players and bad instruction for that matter will bandaid this move with a strong grip to help alleviate the misses for the backed up steep shaft and opened face.

Example 2 let's say a player has a hand path that is vertical and is moving down on a line between the feet and the ball (again down the line view). They now have the opportunity to steepen the shaft or tumble it so the clubhead is moving out towards the ball and also squaring the face. This is the ideal scenario. Because the player's hands/butt end of club have the potential to arrive in the location they started and the shaft can be orientd in the lie angle it was designed at impact.

Now, even if the hand path is correct, there is no reason for the clubhead to swing out to the ball or for the face to square. You may have thoughts now that say to you can i add some toss by straightening the right wrist or what about roll? These may be options in an effort to square the face, but the key is that the initial stressing of the shaft whether it be early or late must input this tumble because waiting till the bottom is folly because as we have learned the "boat has left the dock"

I hope this epic has helped.

Lindsey

 

[footwedge]

For Lindsey , Question: Do you think it's because many people view the shape of the swing as a circle, and swing the clubhead on the inside rail of the circle all the way, and it(the clubhead) never gets on the outside top side of the circle so you can have compression with a downward strike and exit leftwards. If you get what i'm trying to say.

Like one of those practice swing circles made of pvc and you'd rest the clubhead on the pvc tube,( instead of laying the shaft on it and the clubhead outside of it) , and you'd run the clubhead all the way on it from top to bottom. Like a pendulum. If that makes any sense. If not just ignore this post.

 

[lia41985]

When I say "many people back the shaft up" I am referring to what many pop instructors call inside steep. After or during the transition/counterfall, if the hand path (from down the targetline view) moves on a line that is to high or on a diagonal that appears to be more horizontal than vertical, the clubhead must fall behind and thus orient the shaft under/laid off. Now the shaft/clubhead is in essence backing up. most of the time it will reslut in forcing the clubhead to open and at impact the shaft will be to vertical. When I say the shaft will be to vertical I mean that it is steeper than is designed to be at impact.

Why is this important to understand?
Example 1 - an individual has a neutral alignment to the shot, for straightish ball flight and they have this type of out/high hand path. They have to back the clubhead and shaft under that hand path to hit the ball. If they did not back it up they would either shank it or miss it entirely on the outside the target line side of the ball. Many players and bad instruction for that matter will bandaid this move with a strong grip to help alleviate the misses for the backed up steep shaft and opened face.

Example 2 let's say a player has a hand path that is vertical and is moving down on a line between the feet and the ball (again down the line view). They now have the opportunity to steepen the shaft or tumble it so the clubhead is moving out towards the ball and also squaring the face. This is the ideal scenario. Because the player's hands/butt end of club have the potential to arrive in the location they started and the shaft can be orientd in the lie angle it was designed at impact.

Now, even if the hand path is correct, there is no reason for the clubhead to swing out to the ball or for the face to square. You may have thoughts now that say to you can i add some toss by straightening the right wrist or what about roll? These may be options in an effort to square the face, but the key is that the initial stressing of the shaft whether it be early or late must input this tumble because waiting till the bottom is folly because as we have learned the "boat has left the dock"

I hope this epic has helped.

Lindsey

It sure did. Awesome explanation. Thanks!

 

[Lindsey Newman]

For Lindsey , Question: Do you think it's because many people view the shape of the swing as a circle, and swing the clubhead on the inside rail of the circle all the way, and it(the clubhead) never gets on the outside top side of the circle so you can have compression with a downward strike and exit leftwards. If you get what i'm trying to say.

Like one of those practice swing circles made of pvc and you'd rest the clubhead on the pvc tube,( instead of laying the shaft on it and the clubhead outside of it) , and you'd run the clubhead all the way on it from top to bottom. Like a pendulum. If that makes any sense. If not just ignore this post.

I am picking up what your laying down. I can dig it. I guess in way the point is for the club head and shaft to go down, out and around without a bunch of drag on the butt end of the club. If you drag the handle left the shaft will follow the drag, fall back and open the face. If you want the clubhead to swing more left to hit a fade cool, but dragging the butt end left is a recipe for skanks and pull hooks.

I do get your analogy and that PVC training aid is called the SAM 2000. That will date me a bit, but it's all good.

 

[teeithigh]

thanks for the explanation...tried the "tumble" today ala kevin's PUT THE GRIP IN THE RIGHT POCKET AND PUT THE CLUBHEAD ON THE BALL-feeling a great release, reminding me of freddy couples saying he visualized a giant pair of scissors "snapping the shaft in two" to feel that release.....would it be correct to say you won't flip as long as the left hand and forearm rotate down thru impact????