Sergio Garcia & The Tumble

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mjstrong

mjstrong

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You can tumble with the Left arm flying wedge, wrists, or shoulders (I think those are the three). I believe it is npormally defined as the act of closing the clubface in the early part of the downswing.

In Jeremy's case, a more "open" position at the top (more laid off) allows him to then "close" things as hard as he wants with one of those three 'tumblers', in his case - the right shoulder, which must be a confident movement for him.

My 2 cents. I'm sure more of an expert can elaborate.
 
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hitman119

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Sorry trying to catch up

So the tumble is a move to close the club face. I'm an under planer Kevin Shields said earlier the right shoulder is a bad tumble move for an under planer. I have a similar motion to sergio without the good body motion (just a lot of float loading). Does any of Brian's videos cover this?
 
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BIGBALL

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Tumble

I am working on this with Damon. I have never been able to hit anything to the left except for the occasional snap hook - a draw was something I could only do on paper:eek: because my face was always open. Damon of course saw this, and has me working on rotating my hands counter clockwise - to the left - on the downswing. It's gonna take some time to be able to control it, but on the range I am hitting it much more to the left, it's just more of a big push draw / hook right now. I haven't been able to hit the range anywhere as much as I would like, but I have swung the club everyday concentrating on rotating that left arm - and I have a sore left wrist and forearm to prove it;). Once I get to the point where everything is straight or to the left, I will see Damon and work on trajectories, etc.
 
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rprevost

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Question: Is the tumble compatible with the Soft Draw Pattern? What is the relationship of the tumble to the javelin throw move?
 
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holeout

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rprevost said:
Question: Is the tumble compatible with the Soft Draw Pattern? What is the relationship of the tumble to the javelin throw move?
Click to expand...

The underhanded javelin throw is mostly an anti-pull move.

The tumble is good for underplaners and it relies on a more vertical hand path (more towards your feet than the ball) coupled with a left arm that works more down the chest.

I think this is accurate. Brian or Kevin would probably explain it better.
 
lia41985

lia41985

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With the driver:
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Lindsey Newman

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tumble

My thoughts on tumble...

IMHO-Every good golf swing (relative) has some form of tumble.

A very important thing to always remember is that the shaft and the clubface are married. I say this only because when you steepen the shaft you are also squaring the face (ideally).

like a car (hands/arms) pulling a trailor (shaft/clubhead) you must initially pull the trailor in the correct direction so when the trailor comes unhitched (as we have learned in this forum) it continues in the right direction

Most folks never get to expirience tumble. Why? Horizontal, out or high hand path in the downswing.

If your left arm is not as vertical as possible at last parallel and you try to tumble you will hit some super steep shots or skanks. So the first key is to have a good hand path.

If you look at the most envied swings, you will typically see super vert hand paths coming down that allow the player to steepen the shaft/face combination as much as they want. They have zero concerns of skanking it or hitting it steep. They typically have a more neutral grip so the shaft can tumble as much as they want without fear of a hook. Players with good hand paths have a few of options on how they tumble the shaft/clubface combo.

Option 1 - Hogan - ish, Sergio - they have a model or low left arm position at the top and a great closed counterfall transition which puts them WAY DOWN close to the original shaft plane LINE early. From there this type of player uses both hands and right shoulder to steepen the shaft back into the ball while also squaring the face.

Option 2 -Nicklausian - Watson - They have a higher left arm position at the top. Same great counterfall, but because of the higher position at the top, they never get the shaft as close to the original shaft plane LINE. Therefore they cannot hit as much with the right shoulder and instead soley use the down pressure from the arms to steppen/tumble the shaft.

You also have a varient of strong grip players like a Duval and maybe even Azinger who have really only one option. They swing the clubhead out or steepen (kind of) with only the right shoulder. Why? because the strong grip does not allow them to truly steepen the shaft. They would be prone to pull hook if they used a model steepening action.


So what are the keys IMO?

Have a grip that allow you to steepen the shaft without fear of hitting it left.

have an incredible (maybe feeling closed) counterfall transition that keeps the hand path inside and a left arm more vertical

Then if you don't tumble/steepen the shaft you"ll hit the fattest open faced, hook shots ever.

No matter what - get into a position with your counterfall that allows you to HAVE to steepen the shaft!

For those of you that find this reply redundant, accept my apologies.
 
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conkanen

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Is there a video explanation of the tumble? If not I would really appreciate one that goes over what Lindsey is saying as well.
 
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pieman

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what exactly does it mean to 'tumble' ? what is being tumbled? sorry if it's been answered here, but i can't find it.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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- think of tumble in terms of the shaft alignment in the downswing. Typically due to poor hand paths and even worse instruction, folks believe the shaft should point above (dwn line view)the ball. Everyone looks at hogan, sergio and all these laid off moves and believe the shaft, clubhead and sweet spot get thrown out to the ball by magic.Nope at some point pressure must be put on the shaft to align the sweetspot for collision with the ball. That's tumble.

For me, I think of tumble (in the downswing)as the shaft which is always trying to fall backwards behind or under)staying in position to swing the clubhead out to the ball from last parallel. In many cases the shaft acts like a teater totter. When force is put on the grip end in a certain direction the shaft will try to align in that direction. So, if you don't want the shaft to back up under plane, whether you are over the top (out hand path) or imside out(low hand path)you need to feel it steepen so the clubhead swings out towards the ball exposing the sweet spot rather than the toe or heal.
The key is swinging down with the correct hand path so when you tumble the shaft it's neither to steep (out hand path) nor to shallow (to inside hand path). One thing is for sure, it (the shaft) better tumble or you're not swinging, you're just dragging.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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Been watch'n for long time. learn'n for even longer. mostly a silent observer.

I believe, IMO, this to be the very most important thing in a golf swing. The only reason i made a peep.

The "tumble" (how ever you choose to make it happen) can not be achieved correctly without the strongest of counterfall/transitions. I say that with a large acceptance of many "styles" of backswing, although the grip configuration being vital.
 
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holeout

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Lindsey Newman said:
Been watch'n for long time. learn'n for even longer. mostly a silent observer.

I believe, IMO, this to be the very most important thing in a golf swing. The only reason i made a peep.

The "tumble" (how ever you choose to make it happen) can not be achieved correctly without the strongest of counterfall/transitions. I say that with a large acceptance of many "styles" of backswing, although the grip configuration being vital.
Click to expand...

I'm curious to your preferred grip configuration. I think that the left hand grip doesn't really matter (so long as the left wrist bends enough with a stronger grip), but that the right hand better be neutral to weak.

I'm not sure by what you mean by a strong counterfall, either. You mean staying closed long enough?
 
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Lindsey Newman

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When say grip configuration I am referring to whatever grip puts the face in the position to hit the shot desired. The main point being, if the face is overly closed or overly open it and one tumbles the shaft correctly they will get unacceptable reults. For example the very reason out hand path players always reverse tumble and back the shaft up is so they don't shank or pull hook. Because they back the shaft up which "tends" to open the face is the reason for overly strong grips.Vice versa for the overly inside hand path player with a massive weak grip. So, IMO the grip is vital because you are creating a viscious circle by band aiding bad hand paths and backed up shafts with compensating grips.

Preferences are preferences and I am certainly in no position to promote an exact grip for anyone. For me the right grip allows the shaft to be tumbles correctly with satisfactory ball flight. Again, the shaft must tumble to get good path and angle of attack, so the face/grip must not prevent it.

A strong counterfall/transition is again subjective, but the point being it facilitates a good hand path. If staying closed get the hand path on the right angle of attack then I say be more closed. On the other hand, if you're a plyer who gets great depth to your hands at the top you may need a less closed or be "allowed" to feel more opening in the counterfall/transition. What ever it takes to keep the hand an the right path to allow tumble.
 
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