The 'internet junk' swing - with Manzella Answers

[BrendanC]

Here's a theory: the typical 'bad player' swing has evolved. We're not all slicers, we don't all cast the club, and some of us DO hit down on it. Too much.

For many years I struggled with hitting the ball heavy and getting a push fade. I am wondering about how much the killer flaws in my game were influenced by certain fundamental misunderstandings. I think it is fair to say I picked up a lot of these flaws from the internet (not laying blame: my bad play was all my own fault!).

Ideas that can hurt:
1) The Flat Left Wrist. I was very into this.

2) Forward lean. I was striving for a LOT of forward lean; really wanted to make sure my hands were ahead of the ball at impact.

3) Retaining Lag.

4) Inside aft/inside out. Related to the top two, I also really wanted to hit from the inside out.

5) Hitting 'down' and/or not understanding bounce. At times, I was almost trying to make the face of the iron point 'down'. Of course if you hit down, often you will just hit the ground behind the ball. I also tried to play with the leading edge of the club.

Now I will freely admit I mis-applied information supplied by well-meaning and expert people and it is probably good information.

But I think the inside-out, push fade swing is the swing you are near certain to get if you are not careful with a certain brand of web instruction. And it is NASTY.

And I really think there are not as many true slicers left, even among beginners. This impression is confirmed every time I visit the range.

Is the typical 'bad player' swing changing.....and is the internet partly to blame?

 

[Kevin Shields]

If you lag, go for forward lean, pull the butt end toward the baseline and try to hit the inside of the ball......well, if you dont shank it you will indeed hit a nice push slice for sure

 

[Jared Willerson]

Brenden, that is a Great. Post. The ironic thing is I was very similar. I wanted tons-O-lag, the flattest ass left wrist possible and a huge amount of forward lean. It was good information taken to the unusable extreme. I am proud of how this site has moved away from such extreme components.

I agree, the hacker swing now doesn't seem to be a huge slice, but a low pull ...that is what I see, especially with the driver.

 

[peterjthomps]

If you lag, go for forward lean, pull the butt end toward the baseline and try to hit the inside of the ball......well, if you dont shank it you will indeed hit a nice push slice for sure

Just nailed me to a tee. Thank goodness I know better now. I almost gave up on golf because I was attempting to perform these swing techniques incorrectly. It goes to show that good instruction requires a good instructor.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I see slicers every day I go on the range. I think they are less 'banana slicers', but I see plenty o' slicers. I think it has more to do with the equipment than anything. Ball goes straighter, clubs more upright, bigger heads, etc.

Conceptually, I don't have a problem with a lot of the list you describe. 'Swinging out to right field' is probably the only one I don't care for because it's teaching 'mechanics from feel' instead of 'feel from mechanics.'

Just yesterday I was on the range and heard a hacker give some advice to his beginner friend about how the divot being out in front of the ball is only done when the good golfers want to get backspin. Another shining example of how out of whack the concepts are of the regular amateur.







3JACK

 

[BrendanC]

@Richie - all I'm saying is that, when it comes to golf, even good ideas can have a dark side. And the most dogmatic approaches are potentially the most dangerous.

For the record, I certainly didn't set out meaning to have a pop at TGM, which I found very interesting. It has been incredibly influential but it was far too strong a potion for my golf game.

I do however think that trying to create a FLW etc etc etc can produce a particular type of bad swing when mis-applied. The ideas above are the ones that happened to take hold for me - I believed in them, I was intellectually convinced, I tried to do them (without an instructor), I got a little better, I got a lot worse, I tried harder, I played like crap.

I think the ideas are verging on 'don't try this at home folks' dangerous, and I think they result in a particular type of bad swing.

@Jared - thanks, learning a lot in here.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Rich, I think the point was that a lot of guys get on the net get a bunch of advice and stumble upon "flat left wrist" and lag and told the golf swing will be theirs if they will just do it.

The thing is, most are here because they want to be good, so most of the guys will take those pieces of information and totally over do it and end up with a swing that is "internet junk". That is a bash on no one, but ambitious golfers do have a tendency to over do things to the point of insanity..

 

[smbruin22]

i've definitely battling this phenomenon right now. as well as mixing and matching too much advice from too many sources

i think the advice you are making reference to is generally good though.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Generally, yes...maybe, in small doses, with instructors that know how to use these tools in conjunction with modern scientific findings.

 

[dbl]

Brendan, great post! For sure you can add some magazine advice as well to internet theories. The player picking these up, then, without good feedback or knowledge or of how to diagnose from the ball flight, EASILY misapplies these various ideas. At least I did.

I also agree the bad swing is not so much the OTT banana slice, but miscellaneous fades, pulls and pushes. Even see some severe hooks from time to time.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I'm not disagreeing with what Brendan said, it's just that if I had the option of understanding those concepts vs. your traditional Golf Digest-esque concepts...I'd choose the former. I'm 100% confident that any concept/theory/teaching has a 'dark side' to it when it is in the wrong hands. I see it all of the time and have seen it for probably 20 years. And I understand the progression, but I generally don't find it all that prevalent. The internet readers can struggle with it, but I'm still more likely to see internet readers cast and flip. I think it's more prevalent to overdo the shaft lean today than say...1998, but I still see a lot of big time slicers, flippers, casters, etc than I do see a lot of excessive forward shaft lean players.






3JACK

 

[smbruin22]

i would add that since applying the types of "internet junk" mentioned that my best shots have got much much better, but my consistency has gone down at same time. more bad shots. and i don't think it's as simple as more practice. it feels more fundamental than that. someone whose opinion i respect says that most of us don't have the time/resources to apply a pro-style swing and i tend to agree FWIW

 

[gmbtempe]

I just don't see how having a flat left wrist, with forward shaft lean, hitting from the inside is a bad thing for 99% of the golfers I see at the public range everyday.

Sure everything can be overdone, but when they are overdoing it is when I would say thats not such a good thing.

 

[lia41985]

Great post, Brendan!

Swinging left, swinging across the left leg, degrees of shoulders tilt/open--all of these were great fixes after I had become so proficient at doing the components you mentioned. The last piece was getting the tumble right because in my effort to swing more left, across my left leg, and get my shoulders more open and a touch flatter, I was throwing my hands too far out and laying it under! If I tumble the hands right, I can swing left, across the left leg, and tilt and rotate my shoulders right.

Thanks again for your post!

 

[ekennedy]

The fact of the matter is that none of us are robots.

Most players learn by feel and feel is an indicator of where you've been, not where you are going.

If the average player is told that he needs to strengthen his grip a bit, there are only three possible outcomes. One, they make a slight change and maintain it for a long period of time...unlikely. Two, they make a slight change that turns into a major change because each day it "feels' the same as it did the day before. Third scenario, they slowly regress back to the original grip.

Golf swings are constant maintenance and because the golf swing is counter-intuitive, the average golfer is constantly maintaining it in the wrong direction.

 

[BrendanC]

Here is my 'junk' swing. It was a groove-able swing on a range, but not for scoring with (I only practice outdoors now). Like I said, this swing was my 'fault'. But it was shaped by net junk.

YouTube - Golf swing

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

I do not know how, when, where, or why I get on these lists, but if I get another email from The Perfect Connection Swing or Don Trahan, I am going to trace the server and do a Seal Six on the site.

 

[Bigwill]

I do not know how, when, where, or why I get on these lists, but if I get another email from The Perfect Connection Swing or Don Trahan, I am going to trace the server and do a Seal Six on the site.

Aw come on, man. You don't dig the Swing Surgeon? The Surge??

 

[G.O.L.F.]

Ideas that can hurt:
1) The Flat Left Wrist. I was very into this.

3) Retaining Lag.

5) Hitting 'down'

If you're not lagging the sweet spot - yeah, look out right and look out hosel.

I'll bet Brian has never taught an amateur with a handicap of 5 and up who didn't throw the club, or 'quit' to some degree. Sustaining lag, or clubshaft torch is all about eliminating any 'quit' through impact. And the unassailable truth is, no 'quit' = no right wrist throw away (flat to arched left wrist) and, assuming proper ball position, a clubhead traveling down through impact.

Knowing how to lag the sweetspot along with a massive amount of shaft lean is actually a good shot if you're trying to hit the ball under a bunch of trees... and we've all been there. ^_^

 

[Jared Willerson]

I don't think its quite that simple....if it were, everyone on this forum would OWN golf, because a lot of us can do exactly what you talk about and still hit it all over the lot.

I've got that low shot down...bad part, is that was my pattern for a few years. I compressed the crap out of it, but I hit it really low and had no idea where the ball was going. That flat left wrist looked good on video though.