The other side of the story...

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I have spent some very good time with Michael Hebron and I know his literature inside and out. I would think anyone can see that there is enormously valuable information about how to learn in his material. Maybe one point to consider is that having great information is one thing, but you also need to be in a learning state to make changes and aquire skill. It's very much like giving a child a reference text and asking them to understand without having context and how to apply the knowledge. Many people can read, but have not the cognitive ability to assimilate the information.

Learning and application are skills to be taught and learned as well.
 
"...instead of memorizing what the answer is."
3JACK[/QUOTE]


Memorization is the FIRST form of learning, and NOT the lowest as some suggest (not you 3Jack). In my experience excellent teachers have at least two things in common: command of content and charisma. By charisma I mean an ability to communicate. The most obvious hallmark of this communicative ability is a sense of humor!:D I believe teaching methodology is overdone.
 
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Kevin Shields

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I have spent some very good time with Michael Hebron and I know his literature inside and out. I would think anyone can see that there is enormously valuable information about how to learn in his material. Maybe one point to consider is that having great information is one thing, but you also need to be in a learning state to make changes and aquire skill. It's very much like giving a child a reference text and asking them to understand without having context and how to apply the knowledge. Many people can read, but have not the cognitive ability to assimilate the information.

Learning and application are skills to be taught and learned as well.

Especially if your father played:D




(inside joke)
 
I believe that having the latest science available, whether it be golf swing related or learning related, can only help in our quest for golf knowledge.

Ignoring the research and science involved in how we learn would be just like ignoring the D-plane and trackman data we now have available.

Brian's ability to teach, is for him as great a talent as Ben Hogans ballstriking. Of course, Ben didn't need the science or D-Plane knowledge to figure it out for himself, and maybe Brian doesn't need the latest science on learning to be a great teacher. Myself and other instructors and golfers who don't have this inborn talent, need all the help science can give us, be it swing related, or learning related.

John
 
ScottRob, I couldn't agree more with a couple of points you make early in your post. I'm sure you won't like what I'm going to say next, but you really should think about it.

I stopped reading after 4 or 5 sentences. It was just to tedious. There are aproximately 360 words with no paragraphs. This destroys the effectiveness of your post. You are a college instructor, and given that fact, I would expect better from you.
 
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ggsjpc

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This all seems strange.

If correct information was all that mattered, we wouldn't need understanding or application.

Clearly, the information is out there.

Why are people still taking lessons?

The information has to be applied to the student in front of you.

If an understanding of how that student learns benefits the rate or clarity that the information is understood and applied, wouldn't it be silly not to learn about it as a teacher?

I agree with Birly's post where he states:

I take my hat off to you both as teachers - but I think the kindest explanation of what you're saying is that you're badly undervaluing the teaching skills that you've acquired.
 

dbl

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@trickyric and natep - I understand what you're saying, but I don't think your situation is typical. Is it fair to use Golf Digest instruction as a benchmark measure of "not all that good" information? Because I see very few golfers at the range or on the course who LOOK like a GD photo-instructional but who can't play. I guess there might be a fair proportion of those golfers, who look nothing like any lesson I've ever seen in print, who would like to blame "bad information" for their problems - but that's another story.

What I see are golfers at the range and course all the time, who, I believe, read the words in a golf mag but can't get themselves to "look like the picture." It seems they are an amalgam of a dozen or more possibly conflicting, but absolutely badly carried out methods/instructions/tips.

My opinion is they suffer from bad impact problems, and so constantly tweak. The golf mags don't mention impact much.
 
this entire thread reminds me of the 2nd teaching and coaching summit....and the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, the
6th....and then i stopped going....

you, as a student, could be the greatest learner in the world - if you put junk in, you usually get junk out....

that's why this website exists - to upgrade the level of junk that's out there....

OF COURSE a teacher should have a handle on how his students absorb information, but that's for another time and another forum

this place is all about understanding golf swing mechanics and then taking that understanding and using it to upgrade a student's swing by any means....that's it...golf fitness, golf psychology, learning patterns, golf statistics, are all very interesting fields and have many experts - good read their stuff and make yourself better
 
Memorization is the FIRST form of learning, and NOT the lowest as some suggest (not you 3Jack).

I agree with your assessment. Obviously, memorization is a part of learning and IIRC, a small part of IQ tests have some basic memorization skills tested. And IIRC, that's why people's IQ's tend to dip slightly as they get older (their memorization is not as good as it once was once).

But that's kind of the problem with the scholastic teaching profession and it has been going on probably since the beginning of time. It's all about the grade and less about getting the students to actually learn the subject at hand. It's more about giving a student a grade based on their ability to understand it on their own and even worse, kissing ass to the instructor and other things that have nothing to do with the actual learning. Thus it leads to memorizing the answer and nothing beyond that. And IMO, it leads to other things like cheating just so the student can get the answer down.

My old man was a high school teacher for a few years, then quit and got into working for a power company and moved his way up on the ladder. One of the things he had to do for 30 years in the power company was train linesmen and other workers and it mostly had to do with safety. Later on when I finished college, he got a part time job as a professor at a community college and he had students that were struggling. We later talked and discussed how my former Economics professor taught (which piqued my interest because at the time my future job looked like it was going to be a golf instructor, so I wanted to learn how great teachers teach). I wound up explaining to my dad that he needed to teach these students like he taught those workers at the power company in those training classes. At the power company he couldn't afford to just give out the instruction and hope that the workers memorize it and learn it on their own because people's lives were on the line if they violated procedure and safety checks.

How does this relate to golf? I think that at best, many golf instructors just memorize the answers but don't understand the answer and understand how to apply that answer to the student. I see Michael Breed 'memorize the answer' when it comes to D-Plane, but have no idea how to apply it to a student.

Or even worse, you get the instructor who memorizes the answer and thus he feels that the student does not *need* to know the answers either. I hear that all of the time. Hell, watch the Haney Project with Ray Romano and see Romano ask Haney some simple and logical questions and Haney refusing to answer them because he feels that Romano 'needs to listen to what he tells him.'

I think one of the biggest excuses I hear from fellow amateurs and golf instructors is that they will say 'Nicklaus didn't need to understand the D-Plane to play great.' But I have yet to see somebody tell me how understanding D-Plane would hurt a golfer's game.

It's funny because there seems to be a resistance to learning from students and we get teachers that are just enablers to that resistance to learning.











3JACK
 
this entire thread reminds me of the 2nd teaching and coaching summit....and the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, the
6th....and then i stopped going....

you, as a student, could be the greatest learner in the world - if you put junk in, you usually get junk out....

that's why this website exists - to upgrade the level of junk that's out there....

OF COURSE a teacher should have a handle on how his students absorb information, but that's for another time and another forum

this place is all about understanding golf swing mechanics and then taking that understanding and using it to upgrade a student's swing by any means....that's it
...golf fitness, golf psychology, learning patterns, golf statistics, are all very interesting fields and have many experts - good read their stuff and make yourself better

I guess I don't understand why you would want to limit yourself.

As far as I can see, the smarts and experience are here...but not the level of interest?

Half the reason I'm surprised at the attitude is that Michael J and Brian must be amongst the biggest possible advocates for the use of TM/FS type monitors. Without having had the opportunity to use one myself, it still seems like incredibly powerful, instant feedback. And if that isn't a quality of learning issue - then I don't know what is.

Now, it's not like I think that Brian or Michael would disagree on that particular point. But not to want to extend that line of inquiry into HOW a student best learns what they need (maybe away from the lesson tee) seems, just, a bit arbitrary.

It's probably not such an issue in a hands-on lesson situation where you guys can actually teach. But if you want to be the best source of golfing information on the web, I'm just surprised that you feel you can afford to be relatively narrow in your outlook.
 
The posibilities are :

Teacher has bad info student bad awareness, and only sheer luck would lead to progress.

Teacher has fabulous info but student insufficient awareness and cant implement it.

Teacher has fabulous info and student has sufficient awareness to implement it.

IMO for number three to work, the mental approach is as important as the fabulous info.
 
I'm just surprised that you feel you can afford to be relatively narrow in your outlook.

you should see the roads we're going down....they're getting wider by the day

we can't be experts in everything......we're having a hard enough time being experts in the area where we tell people we're experts

that make any sense - i think i confused myself
 
yeah - it makes sense.

I think there's a tension between trying to specialise in one field to distinguish yourself and trying to cover the broadest range. I don't think there's one obvious right answer - but you've got to pick one and do it the best you can. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of Project 1.68.

All I will say is this. The Talent Code is split into 3 sections. The third deals with great coaching. Whilst I was reading it, I kept thinking (based largely on his blog entries here) "Brian would lap this up."
 
A great teacher teaching the wrong info is worse than a poor teacher teaching the wrong info. Why? Because he's going to find a way to get the pupil to adopt and apply this poor info. Good teachers are dangerous if they are equiped with the wrong info. Good learners are a danger to themselves if supplied with the wrong info.

At the end of the day it's WHAT you teach and not HOW you teach that really matters. And that my friends is totally OBVIOUS, is it not?

A great teacher is like a great player - they have something special within them which cannot be copied by others and is somehow resistant to negative influences - hence the "despite" and not "because of" cases like Faldo, Woods, Norman etc who were plied with BS info but still managed to rise to the top.
 
ScottRob, I couldn't agree more with a couple of points you make early in your post. I'm sure you won't like what I'm going to say next, but you really should think about it.

I stopped reading after 4 or 5 sentences. It was just to tedious. There are aproximately 360 words with no paragraphs. This destroys the effectiveness of your post. You are a college instructor, and given that fact, I would expect better from you.

I had a good belly chuckle! I apologize for the lack of paragraphs. I will make a point to get to the point, in the future.
 
What you teach and how you teach are hopelessly intertwined.

If Woods, Faldo, Norman etc. all got bad info please give me some of it.
 
What you teach and how you teach are hopelessly intertwined.

I disagree. They are totally independent factors.

If Woods, Faldo, Norman etc. all got bad info please give me some of it.

If you want the info, just buy one of their books! Or Haney's, Leady's or Butch's. I don't think it will help you much though.

No offence guru, but they were all great players because of their inherent talent for the game, not because of either what they were taught or how it was taught. They were good learners, responding to the feedback their bodies, clubs and ballflight gave them.

I heard Norman on TV the other night saying that he was a great driver of the ball because he kept his "triangle" in tact for as long as possible in the takeaway, thus creating "width". Tell anyone to do that and see if they too become great drivers of the ball.
 
Well that is a totally unprovable subjective opinion, it cannot be disputed.

But if turning players into Normans is the standard, who has ever done that?

I think they would be a very weathy indeed.

As for what and how, let me give you an example. On Brian's video submission to GolfChannel he discusses the right shoulder and its importance in the difference between good and bad players. In order to effectively implement that good info, the student has to know what his right shoulder is doing. Thus the "how" would be the process of getting the student to understand and feel the proper movement, the "what' is the actual movement.
 
I disagree. They are totally independent factors.



If you want the info, just buy one of their books! Or Haney's, Leady's or Butch's. I don't think it will help you much though.

No offence guru, but they were all great players because of their inherent talent for the game, not because of either what they were taught or how it was taught. They were good learners, responding to the feedback their bodies, clubs and ballflight gave them.

I heard Norman on TV the other night saying that he was a great driver of the ball because he kept his "triangle" in tact for as long as possible in the takeaway, thus creating "width". Tell anyone to do that and see if they too become great drivers of the ball.

So, is there a list of players who got "good" info? Or do you think that most good-to-great players learn the same way as Faldo, Norman and Tiger?
 
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