aaron_lohan
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Faldo wouldnt have won a major with his pre leadbetter swing, Leadbetter helped him greatly, he gave Faldo much better info than what he currently possesses.
The other side of the story...
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Faldo wouldnt have won a major with his pre leadbetter swing, Leadbetter helped him greatly, he gave Faldo much better info than what he currently possesses.
Who knows what Faldo would have won or not won. We will never know. The guy was a fantastic player as a boy, youth, amateur and professional before he met Leadbetter. Will Dustin Johnson have to change his swing to win a major? Or will he win it on talent and natural ability coupled with a little bit of coaching which doesn't upset what he already has? That is something we will find out pretty soon I think.
I genuinely think most learn in this way.
Some get messed up by coaches, some don't. Some get helped by coaches, some don't.
Let's not go all binary on this. Its all grey, not b & w. Some of the ideas and coaching in the past helped, some hindered. Some of it was close to the truth, some far away. Some guys got better because of their coach, some guys got worse. Some coaches did a decent job, some were atrociously bad... I think you get the point.
chipingguru
New
As to Norman and his Triangle, I would like to know what he was talking about. Could be a lot of things.
Width on the BS did not seem to hurt Jack's game.
Width on the BS did not seem to hurt Jack's game.
The how and the what are nevertheless independent concepts.
I'm not saying width is bad per se guru, just that it was not the reason he or Jack played so well.
This throws up the op relevant question though: would these players have been better if they had had more accurate info, or was it just as effective for them to operate with their "ball park" ideas?
One thing is for sure, now we have many more great golfers than in the past. Is this because the golfer with less natural learning ability benefits from more accurate info?
This throws up the op relevant question though: would these players have been better if they had had more accurate info, or was it just as effective for them to operate with their "ball park" ideas?
One thing is for sure, now we have many more great golfers than in the past. Is this because the golfer with less natural learning ability benefits from more accurate info?
chipingguru
New
More great players? Not so sure. Jack, Trevino, Palmer, Player, Hogan, Watson etc.
Ever see Jack spray the ball all over creation like Tiger does? Can these guys work the ball like Lee or Hogan or Nelson? Heck Watson almost beat em all at 59.
I am all for more acurrate scientific info on the game and respect all who endeaver to discover it. But I think these guys had more knowledge than is being credited here.
Ever see Jack spray the ball all over creation like Tiger does? Can these guys work the ball like Lee or Hogan or Nelson? Heck Watson almost beat em all at 59.
I am all for more acurrate scientific info on the game and respect all who endeaver to discover it. But I think these guys had more knowledge than is being credited here.
There is more to golf than a golf swing. A lot more. There is also more to being a champion golfer than being good at golf. It's great to have the knowledge of what every part of the body could or should be doing in the golf swing (in a perfect world), but something tells me that when a truly great golfer is standing over the ball, he probably isn't thinking about it nor is he afraid of where the ball might end up.
When Nicklaus talks about how he made a bad backswing on the 17th hole at Pebble Beach in the US Open but made a fabulous recovery on the downswing, it wasn't his tremendous knowledge of the golf swing that he relied on. It was his feel and his ability to stay in the moment that allowed him to pull that shot off. Most people have no idea where the club is at any point in the swing...especially on the 71st hole of a major.
Oh. And I've seen that swing and it looked like every other swing he made that day.
When Nicklaus talks about how he made a bad backswing on the 17th hole at Pebble Beach in the US Open but made a fabulous recovery on the downswing, it wasn't his tremendous knowledge of the golf swing that he relied on. It was his feel and his ability to stay in the moment that allowed him to pull that shot off. Most people have no idea where the club is at any point in the swing...especially on the 71st hole of a major.
Oh. And I've seen that swing and it looked like every other swing he made that day.
There are load of guys out there today on the mini tours who are better golfers than all but the best of them from the 30 years ago. OK, some guys were special, you mention a few of them guru. I see guys hitting balls 340 yards who can't even make it onto the 3rd level tours (those same guys can play fantastic bunker shots and can hole putts too). But as ekennedy says, there's more to golf than just the ability to hit great shots. The point I was making is that there weren't as many guys 30 years ago playing fantastic golf shots because the knowledge level 30 years ago hindered more than it helped. Now its helps more than it hinders.
softconsult
New
Don't forget the money. It would be interesting to see a comparison of absolute number golfers chasing the dream 30 years ago versus today. I'm betting there are way more now than then.
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SteveT
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The greatest challenge for a golf teacher, or for that matter any physical education teacher, is to motivate the student to correctly practice what they learned at the lesson. Upon returning for the next lesson, the teacher and student can discuss the progress made and problems encountered.
I disagree with anybody who says he has the ability to teach somebody something new in one lesson that will permanently improve their golfswing. If you learn quickly, you forget quickly, if you learn slowly and steadily, you forget slowly and tend to retain more.
Physical training requires intense practice to alter your brain cell structure and neural system. Athletic training programs usually require 180 days, or 6 months to establish new actions at the unconscious level of performance ... because that is how long it takes for brain cells and neural systems to grow. Anything less is risky and this well known in the physical education community. Re-training will take even longer.
Golf tips are for suckers who are stupid enough to fall for them. No professional athlete would believe they can instantaneously implement and maintain a new move at a performance level. Novice adult golfers are gullible but demanding in their desire for instant fixes. Yes, their golf tip fix works the first time, but they soon regress back to their old ways.
They should be exploited to the max because a fool and their money are soon parted ... as the saying goes. The equipment manufacturers know this only too well when they market their magnificent hi-tech toys ... and do the gearheads ever bite on the bait ...
I disagree with anybody who says he has the ability to teach somebody something new in one lesson that will permanently improve their golfswing. If you learn quickly, you forget quickly, if you learn slowly and steadily, you forget slowly and tend to retain more.
Physical training requires intense practice to alter your brain cell structure and neural system. Athletic training programs usually require 180 days, or 6 months to establish new actions at the unconscious level of performance ... because that is how long it takes for brain cells and neural systems to grow. Anything less is risky and this well known in the physical education community. Re-training will take even longer.
Golf tips are for suckers who are stupid enough to fall for them. No professional athlete would believe they can instantaneously implement and maintain a new move at a performance level. Novice adult golfers are gullible but demanding in their desire for instant fixes. Yes, their golf tip fix works the first time, but they soon regress back to their old ways.
They should be exploited to the max because a fool and their money are soon parted ... as the saying goes. The equipment manufacturers know this only too well when they market their magnificent hi-tech toys ... and do the gearheads ever bite on the bait ...
The one thing I'll say, as a schoolteacher and university lecturer, is that some great academics (including someone I work with who was shortlisted for a Fields medal) make lousy teachers.
Yes, you need the knowledge; but it's meaningless if you can't communicate/convey it to your students.
Yes, you need the knowledge; but it's meaningless if you can't communicate/convey it to your students.
Not meaningless for yourself though, hence the good players who are poor teachers.
But hey, let's not get binary again, there's every combination out there: Poor player, poor teacher; poor player, good teacher; good player, poor teacher; good player, good teacher.
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SteveT
Guest
If you can't do .. teach .. if you can't teach .. research? ...
A teacher is somebody who understands the knowledge but can't apply it to themselves ... like Brian who is not a tour pro.
Pure scientists develop the laws, but can't apply it .. it's up to engineers to build the stuff around the laws.
Pure scientific research about the golfswing and golf ball flight is not readily usable by the golfing masses .. or for that matter by the teaching establishment. It has to be simplified, almost dumbed down, for average consumption. Good luck to BManz etal in their Project 1.68 .. it's gonna be interesting.
Golf is only a game played by childish people seeking "fun" and going back to school is no fun ... no wonder knowledge is such a tough sell ...
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softconsult
New
"If you learn quickly, you forget quickly, if you learn slowly and steadily, you forget slowly and tend to retain more."
This rings a bell with me. Back in the 90's we were heavily into "The Shag", the state dance of South Carolina. We got to know several couples who were competitive dancers.
At one of the many out of town weekend dance parties, a professional instructor was working with us on a compicated series of steps. As usual, I struggled to get it down.
She said, with conviction, the same thing as Steve T. I had to work harder, but once I mastered something I didn't forget it. Of course, my girlfriend picked things up more rapidly and she retained them just as well. Maybe there is something to this.
This rings a bell with me. Back in the 90's we were heavily into "The Shag", the state dance of South Carolina. We got to know several couples who were competitive dancers.
At one of the many out of town weekend dance parties, a professional instructor was working with us on a compicated series of steps. As usual, I struggled to get it down.
She said, with conviction, the same thing as Steve T. I had to work harder, but once I mastered something I didn't forget it. Of course, my girlfriend picked things up more rapidly and she retained them just as well. Maybe there is something to this.
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SteveT
Guest
Swing a weighted golf club and then swing your normal golf club .. and eureka ... you've got it ...!!!!
10 minutes later, you've lost it ... so what's happened ..????
Same thing happens with instantaneous, miraculous, fabulous fix swing tips ... soooo ....
I'm curious about this statement. What is/are your source(s)?
chipingguru
New
Look at Tiger, Unbelievable awareness yet look how long it takes him to implement a swing change.
Palmer once said it took an entire year to get used to a grip adjustment.
How is average Joe golfer gonna make a change in one lesson?
Palmer once said it took an entire year to get used to a grip adjustment.
How is average Joe golfer gonna make a change in one lesson?
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SteveT
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