The other side of the story...

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SteveT

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chipingguru said:
Look at Tiger, Unbelievable awareness yet look how long it takes him to implement a swing change.

Palmer once said it took an entire year to get used to a grip adjustment.

How is average Joe golfer gonna make a change in one lesson?
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There is a TGC video with Tiger and Harmon and a new backswing .. which took Tiger one year to acquire.

Faldo and Leadbetter worked on the new golfswing for 2 years .. and boy did it pay off ..!!!

Palmer said in one of his books that he was only comfortable with his driver at age 29 ..!!!

Average Joe golfer and anybody else?? ... no chance, unless you delude and lie ...:eek:
 
natep

natep

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I agree that it may take up to six months to ingrain a change to the point where it is completely subconscious and reliable for peak performance.

But during that six months, having to consciously implement the change can still show improved results, depending on how bad the flaw was, even though having to consciously implement the change makes it less effective than if it was done subconsciously.
 
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spktho

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SteveT said:
Just believe me ... :p
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Yes Master:p.

I really wasn't being sarcastic, I am curious as to how it was tested and how the results were measured in the studies. From my limited studies in exercise physiology, mostly weight training and physical rehabilitation, the sources I have seen show about a 6 week time period for measurable tissue changes--age dependent, of course.
 
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Lindsey Newman

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Michael Finney said:
this entire thread reminds me of the 2nd teaching and coaching summit....and the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, the
6th....and then i stopped going....

you, as a student, could be the greatest learner in the world - if you put junk in, you usually get junk out....

that's why this website exists - to upgrade the level of junk that's out there....

OF COURSE a teacher should have a handle on how his students absorb information, but that's for another time and another forum

this place is all about understanding golf swing mechanics and then taking that understanding and using it to upgrade a student's swing by any means....that's it...golf fitness, golf psychology, learning patterns, golf statistics, are all very interesting fields and have many experts - good read their stuff and make yourself better
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Did I miss the "mission statement" of this forum? Michael, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, Brian and some of the other Manzella academy instructors, but to say that the discussions around learning do not belong in this forum seems preposterous to say the least. I am certainly not trying to be offensive, but I am confused.
 
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SteveT

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spktho said:
I really wasn't being sarcastic, I am curious as to how it was tested and how the results were measured in the studies. From my limited studies in exercise physiology, mostly weight training and physical rehabilitation, the sources I have seen show about a 6 week time period for measurable tissue changes--age dependent, of course.
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Yes, you can get measurable tissue change in 45 days, but when you get into the brain cell and neural growth, you need much more time for permanent change in complex activities. How long does it take for stroke victim rehabilitation???

I recall studies which indicated significant changes in 90 days for athletes in a rush, but it was risky for top athletic performance.

If I had to source all my knowledge, it would be too time consuming onerous ... take it or leave it ...;)
 
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ekennedy

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I love the discussions about how a tour player changed their "backswing." Someday in the future (hopefully on this forum) a teacher will finally say that working on your backswing is like practicing your touchdown dance. A complete waste of time.

Understanding WHY the ball flew the way it did and understanding YOUR golf swing is the only thing that matters. I'm no tour star, but I was able to take the information I've gotten from Brian and this forum and play better golf instantly. Golf is a game of misses and the guy that can make the proper corrections during a round or an event will play the best every time.

I've spent six years searching for the holy grail only to find out it was right there in front of me the whole time. If I win a Section event in 2011 I'm sending Manzella a check. Book it.
 
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SteveT

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ekennedy said:
I'm no tour star, but I was able to take the information I've gotten from Brian and this forum and play better golf instantly. ........ I'm sending Manzella a check. Book it.
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If you say so .... :D
 
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spktho

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SteveT said:
Yes, you can get measurable tissue change in 45 days, but when you get into the brain cell and neural growth, you need much more time for permanent change in complex activities. How long does it take for stroke victim rehabilitation???

I recall studies which indicated significant changes in 90 days for athletes in a rush, but it was risky for top athletic performance.

If I had to source all my knowledge, it would be too time consuming onerous ... take it or leave it ...;)
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Sounds as if you are referencing axonal transport which is very slow especially in a 3-4 foot long neuron. The recovery time for a stroke is most dependent on the severity of damage, health status, and age. There is no definitive time period given.

If you are referring to top "world class" athletic, musical or other movement patterns, then I would say it takes longer than 6 months--years for most. But, for general changes in movement patterns like getting weight to the right side on the backswing, I think it takes much less time.

Oh well, off to my own studies.
 
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macduffer

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Many parts of the body's neurological system are involved in learning new skills: the synapse network, the dorsolateral striatum, the dorsomedial striatum, the dopaminergic network, and the prefrontal cortices, amongst others.

What 'development' these structures undergo is even more problematic to establish. There are, for example, individuals with significant damage (both traumatic or organic) who can learn new motor skills. There are individuals whose brains are, by every available diagnostic tool, absolutely normal, who find any new motor skill very, very difficult to acquire/

H. Yin, P. Frankland and many others have discussed this problem at length in various academic journals over the last 5 years.
 
ZAP

ZAP

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So if I started walking down stairs backwards it would take me six months to get good at it?
 
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ekennedy

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The point I was making on BS, is that "most" teachers will take the backswing of a tour player and tell you why they can make a seemingly unusual position work based on their results.

The same teacher will change an 18 handicapper with the same backswing based on their results.

A couple things...you don't hit the ball with your backswing.

Another thing...any backswing position has an ideal compensation on the downswing. If you change the backswing position, you must change the compensation. If you make the right compensation, then you have a repeatable golf swing. See Jim Furyk, Raymond Floyd, Jim Thorpe.

Tiger wanted a pretty backswing like Mark O'Meara's and he got a pretty backswing. Congrats.
 
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chipingguru

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I agree, anybody who would try and change Furyk, Floyd, or Thorpe's BS is nuts. Then again Hogan surely changed his for great benefit.

Unfortunately, a lot of folks with bad backswings don't compensate well. Reverse pivot, no weight shift, sliding way off the ball, collapsing arms, miles off plane -huge open clubface - losing spine angle, etc. - and then it only gets worse. For them BS work could be helpful (like the twistaway move).
 
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ekennedy

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I kinda view S&T as a sort of "I'll bet you I can get a tour player to hit a ball from this position" followed by a bong hit.
 
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SteveT

Guest
spktho said:
Sounds as if you are referencing axonal transport which is very slow especially in a 3-4 foot long neuron. The recovery time for a stroke is most dependent on the severity of damage, health status, and age. There is no definitive time period given.

If you are referring to top "world class" athletic, musical or other movement patterns, then I would say it takes longer than 6 months--years for most. But, for general changes in movement patterns like getting weight to the right side on the backswing, I think it takes much less time.
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macduffer said:
Many parts of the body's neurological system are involved in learning new skills: the synapse network, the dorsolateral striatum, the dorsomedial striatum, the dopaminergic network, and the prefrontal cortices, amongst others.

What 'development' these structures undergo is even more problematic to establish. There are, for example, individuals with significant damage (both traumatic or organic) who can learn new motor skills. There are individuals whose brains are, by every available diagnostic tool, absolutely normal, who find any new motor skill very, very difficult to acquire/

H. Yin, P. Frankland and many others have discussed this problem at length in various academic journals over the last 5 years.
Click to expand...

I think we have conclusively determined that it is impossible to teach yourself a homemade golfswing with any consistency. Seek help from a qualified practitioner like BManz ...!!!
 
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