The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Frans@France]

Tried the move with an Iron 7.
According to the TM I lost 6mph but did not lose carry. My AoA was way shallower then normal with some being in the positive range (+1D)
In the first few attempts got 10degree outside-in and with the face not square to the path.
Then found the correct point in the transition where I should feel like throwing the club like a dart away from the target and the outside-in became more normal but still inconsistant. I got between 2d inside/out or outside/in
Found it hard (impossible) to square the face with consious hand thoughts but found out that if I lift the left shoulder high enough the face will square.
The final swing feels very soft and easy, contact was solid, carry was good.

Then I tried a long hybrid with the same move : impossible ! swing path was not that bad but face was open 6 or more degrees every single shot. Then I changed two things
- delayed the throw until the lower body was out of the way (or going to be out of the way)
- then did the throw
- Got the left shoulder even higher then with the Iron

result : love it !! straight as an arrow with sometimes a small baby fade or draw. But that might be because the shaft is a bit to soft.

 

[rprevost]

It looks to me that he lines up the club later than MJ suggests he should in MJ's video. What causes the late lining up? The NHA pattern and swinging away from the wall? Or am I just misreading what I see?

 

[blehnhard]

I believe that Ernie Els also has a similar move as DT at the beginning of the DS.

How does all of this info line up with the "wide (BS)" to "narrow (DS) thoughts? Should we all strive for a wider hand path in the DS with no thought as to actually getting the right elbow in close or to touch the right side early in the DS?

Is the feeling more of a smooth continual acceleration from the beginning of the DS instead of a quick burst of acceleration at the bottom (snap release?)?

Have not had a chance to watch the videos from MJ & BM yet as my computer speakers are on the fritz. Hope to solve that today.

Could it be that many "flipping" issues are caused by trying to hold much angle too long and then have to flip in order to try to square the clubface?

Thanks - Bruce

 

[wulsy]

DT's impct position is strange. Left wrist very arched, right wrist very bent, right arm really bent at elbow. Just after impact he has the opposite situation in the wrists: left wrist very bent, right wrist pretty arched. Is this part of "lining up"?

All you guys out there who are now creaming it with this "away from target, lining up" idea must have been so unbelievably misguided in the past. Some of the comments and descriptions about what you guys were trying to do are just insane: hold a FLW thro impact, swing to an aiming point on the ground????, out and down through impact????. Absolutely insane: it's like someone trying to win a 100m race gainst Usain Bolt walking on their hands.

 

[Lifter]

I'm not sure anything wants to be exaggerated. I feel its more of a case of the hands forward, aiming point style, was already an exaggeration, and leads to the hand path being too far down and especially out. As others have said, if your left shoulder is going up & in, then your hands should also travel up & in (unless you have some manipulation i.e. throwing them out at some point infront of the ball).

Disclaimer: I refer to forward hands, aiming point, as presented in The Impact Zone (Bobby Clampett), as I quoted earlier. I'm sure others advocated the same thing as Bobby too. Apparently, though, there was another 'aiming point' concept that involved the hands travelling up & in (?) and it seems I (and everyone else) was unaware of this until now...

Force across the shaft I'm reading as... 'lag pressure' being actually more common in higher handicap players and almost non-existent in tour players. Ironically, I feel I need this force across the shaft to force the hands out to the aiming point - its a place the swinging golf club doesn't want to go naturally. So for me a better low point for the hands (bottoming out earlier) means I don't need or create any lag pressure.

Anyone can expand/correct on this?

Thanks, BertramSterling, appreciate your thoughts. But I gotta think there's more to this than simply "Left shoulder up and in."

 

[Erik_K]

I believe that Ernie Els also has a similar move as DT at the beginning of the DS.

How does all of this info line up with the "wide (BS)" to "narrow (DS) thoughts? Should we all strive for a wider hand path in the DS with no thought as to actually getting the right elbow in close or to touch the right side early in the DS?

Is the feeling more of a smooth continual acceleration from the beginning of the DS instead of a quick burst of acceleration at the bottom (snap release?)?

Have not had a chance to watch the videos from MJ & BM yet as my computer speakers are on the fritz. Hope to solve that today.



Could it be that many "flipping" issues are caused by trying to hold much angle too long and then have to flip in order to try to square the clubface?

Thanks - Bruce

Bruce -

I think Michael mentions that golfers with tons of lags and forward lean need a lot of body rotation - See Sergio. I suppose if you aren't clearing enough on the DS, you may need some other compensation to square up the face.

Erik

 

[Kevin Shields]

DT's impct position is strange. Left wrist very arched, right wrist very bent, right arm really bent at elbow. Just after impact he has the opposite situation in the wrists: left wrist very bent, right wrist pretty arched. Is this part of "lining up"?

All you guys out there who are now creaming it with this "away from target, lining up" idea must have been so unbelievably misguided in the past. Some of the comments and descriptions about what you guys were trying to do are just insane: hold a FLW thro impact, swing to an aiming point on the ground????, out and down through impact????. Absolutely insane: it's like someone trying to win a 100m race gainst Usain Bolt walking on their hands.

Apparently they've been taught or told to do these things

 

[dbl]

My take on the DS is quite opposite of rprevots's in post 259, in that no conscious though is needed from the moment the rearward hand action happens. I think (for me) that is a good thing! If anything, there is a need to not get in the way of the action, no blocking stopping directing and causing problems.

Was it this thread or another recently where Dariusz made his point of proper setup leading to proper mechanics and outcome? I went and drapped out Hogan's Five Lessons to check a few things. Perhaps this is "the secret" in that Hogan doesn't verbally mention the hand motion going backwards, though the illustrations SHOW IT. What is missing is more illustration of clubhead travel of being thrown rearward as well. Interesting BH has the downswing tilted to the right, which matches my SD top of BS nicely and other's comments about the rearward motion lateral orientation. That may be a choice though. Is this release some sort of morphing of Hogan and Nicklaus? Interesting...

Btw, also watched abit of the Golf Channel, and the Champions tour was on. I'd say you could see this release from the top on about the half the players clearly. With good camera shots, saw it in Sluman and Langer, and I think Bryant (hard to recall). Not so much Cochran and others. Maybe 1/3 aren't doing it or in an obviously visible way.

And in response to Wulsy (post 264 above), there are other swing types for which this release can benefit people. I was doing no aiming point thing before, probably ever.

ETA: maybe my swing would have Nicklaus BS, and then DS is combo of Hogan and TWatson.

 

[Brian Manzella]

AND more!

Does the weight shift onto the left foot cause the coupling point to go out and away from the target at the start of the downswing?

To me, weight shift is nothing more than a reaction and counter-balance to the swinging clubhead + some attempt to help time the line up of the club.

When I hit a driver with this information, my weight goes OUT TO THE RIGHT when the club head goes out to the right at the beginning of the downswing.

How does all of this info line up with the "wide (BS)" to "narrow (DS) thoughts? Should we all strive for a wider hand path in the DS with no thought as to actually getting the right elbow in close or to touch the right side early in the DS?

Great point and I'd like MJ to chime in on this one, but the answer is:

You shouldn't try to get wide to narrow.

The poster child for this wide-to-wider is Davis Love III.

The impetus for Love's move comes from The Golfing Machine interpretation of Tom Tomesello. DLIII's dad Davis Love took III to see Tomesello and a Golf Digest article was done on the "retracing" concept.

Credit where credit is due.

An unfortunate part of TGM is the whiff on the bending of the left wrist/arching of the right wrist through impact that is so important to all of this.

Is the feeling more of a smooth continual acceleration from the beginning of the DS instead of a quick burst of acceleration at the bottom (snap release?)?

Not so sure about the actual science of whether it is quick or lazy, but I have to do it very deliberate.

Could it be that many "flipping" issues are caused by trying to hold much angle too long and then have to flip in order to try to square the clubface?

Absolutely!

DT's impct position is strange. Left wrist very arched, right wrist very bent, right arm really bent at elbow. Just after impact he has the opposite situation in the wrists: left wrist very bent, right wrist pretty arched. Is this part of "lining up"?

It is THE rotation about the coupling point that is the crux of this whole phenomenon.

David delays the toss somewhat with his body rotation.

He is the poster boy for THE INTENTION of a toss/flick/full line up and how NOT FLIPPED it is.

Watch the video that jen put up.....very easy from the DTL to see the toss, but from face on, it looks like a drag.

It is not a drag.

It is a timed toss.

Just timed different than a Jeff Ogilvy.

All you guys out there who are now creaming it with this "away from target, lining up" idea must have been so unbelievably misguided in the past. Some of the comments and descriptions about what you guys were trying to do are just insane: hold a FLW thro impact, swing to an aiming point on the ground????, out and down through impact????. Absolutely insane: it's like someone trying to win a 100m race gainst Usain Bolt walking on their hands.

I don't know how to say this wulsy, but you obviously don't live in my world.

I've been teaching this out of folks for quite a while. The SOFT DRAW PATTERN is OBVIOUSLY dealing with the EXACT SAME ISSUES.

The video is a couple of years old now.

This is just the latest science on those issues.


To be honest, I don't ever know if you are IN or you are OUT.

 

[JEREMY5577]

The feel is very, very different from what I have had. For three years or more--gotta look at when I joined this forum--I have been trying to get forward shaft lean and a flat left wrist through impact. Trying to do that made it a lot harder for me to swing the club, even though I fancied myself as a TGM swinger. In what seemed to me COFF fashion, I was trying to get my right shoulder down the plane line so that I could push my hands forward at impact. It was a slow-go for me, and I was not achieving what I thought I would. When I bought NHA and finally gathered what the Yellow Brick Road was, and started swinging left to control low point, I got better. I played my best golf using that pattern. It was harder to focus on a lot of forward shaft lean with carry, drop, and swinging "away from the wall." Most recently, I went back to the deeper SD backswing and re-introduced the duck hook to my repertoire. I am traditionally an underplaner and trying the SD backswing with my attempts to have a lot of forward shaft lean made it worse.

Since I saw MJ's video, I have tried to monitor my hands (ironic isn't it? "Educate the hands!) I have tried to swing my hands left from their hands low point and have the butt of the club pointed at my left hip when it lines up (maybe pointing a little more toward the center of my body). I just haven't thought at all of hands-forward, shaft-lean. The big difference in feel has been speed. This happens so fast relative to what I was doing, that is, trying to hold a flat left wrist way past impact. I feel almost like it is a pure arm swing with little or no pivot. With my previous swing thought, I had to pivot like crazy to get my left hip out of the way to get my hands so far forward. Consciously trying to swing to the point where both arms are straight takes a lot of time, relatively speaking. Now I feel my arms a lot more because I have to swing them so fast in order to line up the club so quickly. You cannot close that gap fast enough if you are trying to screw driver the wrist in order to square up the club at impact. See MJ's video # 2! I know that I am pivoting reasonably well because the ball flight is straight, high, and long. I still have to pivot to swing the hands left from their low point. If I don't pivot, my left hip gets in the way of the club swinging through, forcing the club to swing out to the right and my backing the shaft up in order to square the club face. In fact, in order to swing my hands left from their low point, I feel that I am snapping my left hip out of the way. (Note the movement of MJ's left hip when he demonstrates in both the videos. That what I see him doing.) So for the first time, I feel like I am snapping the kinetic chain like I am supposed to. All in all, it is as if, as Brian said, everything is a reaction to the proper release. But the feel is that I am releasing the club much sooner and faster, using a lot less body and pivot than I was, much more handsey. If that is what you mean by "1 giant lever action," I say yes, that is what I feel.

Cool, yeah I've been messing with it for 4 days now. Each day I notice it becoming one synchronized move or lever action against the ground with less swing thoughts. It really is the swing in 2 parts. Back swing and down swing. I used to have checkpoints on the down swing. Like push down left heel,bump left hip, point butt of club at target line ext... then made conscious efforts to get into my finish position. Every one of those thoughts are gone now. I'm starting realize what high end players mean when they say they can just swing with no thoughts. Just make a good back swing hitting some key check points then the rest is just 1 swing thought "make the move" for me that move is lever the right side of my body against my left into the back of the ball.

 

[mb6606]

First PGA instructor I ever met taught everyone from the top to throw the clubhead 180 degrees from the target and stand the club up at impact. Is this MJ's message?

 

[dbl]

mb, I think so.

I have a question aboiut sources. Have seen the vimeo video and there is a part where BM/MJ report the scientists are saying such n such but had not talked with golf pro/instructors....

So is this release
1. Something the scientists were saying from some biomechanical/physical thinking from first principles?
2. Something the scientists were saying based on some model they created?
3. Something the scientists were saying having analyzed the swings of the golf greats?

or was this due more to
4. Golf Pros/instructors looking at golf swings of the greats and gleaning something common? (possible with some input from 1,2,3 above)

 

[Todd Dugan]

More Aiming Point defense.............from a "non-book guy".

I can't find a video in my extensive library of the greats where the right arm doesn't continue straightening PAST impact. When the right arm becomes fully straight it is ON the same plane as the shaft, and thus POINTING at the plane line, as the shaft does. The Aiming Point procedure is simply about an awareness of WHERE on the plane line the right arm should point when it becomes fully straight.

Much thanks to this thread for causing me to study this straightening of, and the TIMING of the straightening of, the right arm more closely and thus, rightly elevating it to an even higher level of importance.

 

[scorekeeper]

hey wulsy

In answer to Brian, whether you are in or out......i believe you are IN......having said that Homer Kelly was IN at the
time......

read brian's sentence..."latest science"....I am not saying B and I haven't had our differences....but that's in the past........he agreed with

TGM.....as did mike jacobs.....until they further investigated and come up with better and more accurate info....... EG with Trackman or Flightscope.........they can help us quicker... A.1 hr lesson ..becomes 90 minutes of instruction


....Like was said in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF........When Tevya said to Golda....golda.."its a new world

to stay the same is to go backwards..................in closing i will say....in 1952 as a 9 year old....my Mom bought me a NEW PENCIL............wow a new shiny pencil....

4 days ago i get a phone call from my grandson.....4 years old............."papa will you PLEASE PLEASE buy me a LAPTOP??

Come with us Wulsy....its going to be a fun ride

HOWARD

 

[jay2010]

Carl Rabito has been saying this for years, but I love the way MJ and BM teach it.

 

[gailfcno]

what exactly brings the hands up from lowpoint, is it the combo of left shoulder moving up and the straightening of the left leg, what other varibles would be responsible for the hands moving upwards from lowpoint.

 

[spktho]

Much thanks to this thread for causing me to study this straightening of, and the TIMING of the straightening of, the right arm more closely and thus, rightly elevating it to an even higher level of importance.

I know many pros have their right arms pretty bent at impact, but extrapolating a bit using this release thread information, it may be that the right arm nearly straight at impact could be more ideal?

 

[scorekeeper]

how about

5- NONE OF THE ABOVE

 

[scorekeeper]

mb, I think so.

I have a question aboiut sources. Have seen the vimeo video and there is a part where BM/MJ report the scientists are saying such n such but had not talked with golf pro/instructors....

So is this release
1. Something the scientists were saying from some biomechanical/physical thinking from first principles?
2. Something the scientists were saying based on some model they created?
3. Something the scientists were saying having analyzed the swings of the golf greats?

or was this due more to
4. Golf Pros/instructors looking at golf swings of the greats and gleaning something common? (possible with some input from 1,2,3 above)

NONE OF THE ABOVE

 

[Lindsey Newman]

what exactly brings the hands up from lowpoint, is it the combo of left shoulder moving up and the straightening of the left leg, what other varibles would be responsible for the hands moving upwards from lowpoint.

Watch Goosen and Westwood, they bring it up with their arms...