The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[faux_maestro]

Umm.... do you know anything about physics?

Good one.

 

[spktho]

Only thing is, I'm not so sure they have the empirical evidence. After all, they haven't been teaching this for very long, if at all.

Agreed, to an extent. The tangential force at impact findings are impressive. Piecing the information together to make sense of the golf swing is a major challenge.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

I'm not a flat worlder by any manner. If I was I wouldn't be the golfer I am today: shit f#king hot. I've changed so many ideas over the years based on your accurate statement that the way of the world is that things move on fluidly: out with the things that don't work in with the things that do.

That's not what I was talking about though. If you read my post accurately you will see that.

And so modest too...

 

[Jared Willerson]

A stack & tilter no doubt. Even the literalists don't want to pick fights any more. They hang around one forum talking their 6-b language trying to sound smarter than each other.

 

[conkanen]

this thing is getting derailed.

 

[otto6457]

A stack & tiltet no doubt. Even the literalists don't want to pick fights any more. They hang around one forum talking their 6-b language trying to sound smarter than each other.

^^This^^

The S&T crowd are about the only one's left that jihad anyone that casts any sort of shadow over their beloved methodology.

 

[Brian Manzella]

A whole bunch of answers.....and a couple of comments as well.

Here are some answers to a whole bunch of questions.....

Important question!

Here are the stats:

Force Across the Shaft - Clinically known as TANGENTIAL FORCE:

18 Handicap - {obviously as a 18 handicap, not a consistent striker at all}

7.8 % of total tangential force still present at impact


13 Handicap - {obviously as a 13 handicap, not a consistent striker}

3.8 % of total tangential force still present at contact


5 Handicap - {obviously a good scorer and gets the ball around the golf course well}

6.7% of total tangential force still present at contact


Professional Player

Obviously a consistent player if they are a professional player who has sustained a career at golf

0% of total Tangential Force present at impact


Bottom Line folks - The more force across the shaft at ball contact the worse your consistency of strike will be. The 5 handicap showed tangential force greater than expected at impact, a straight ball was the elusive part of his game

Notice how NOBODY, NOWHERE, is refuting this.

SCIENCE by a SCIENTIST.

I seem to remember a STUPID picture somewhere.....A guy dragging the frazizzel out of a dowel. Hands MILES forward. Some yahoo claimed it to be the "most important pic in golf history."

Totally wrong. Couldn't be more wrong.

Here's a couple legit questions (which will probably be ignored)........

How are you supposed to move the handle farther from your left shoulder from the top when your left arm is already straight?

And, how are you supposed to move the handle up and in sooner with the left arm straight?

Todd....

The left arm swings across the chest and the hands move away just by unswinging it away from the chest.

As far as the coupling point being moved up....left leg straightening + back extension + left shoulder up (I'm talking about the SHOULDER COMPLEX).

Thank you Brian, Michael, and others who have worked so hard on Project 1.68 to finally compile all the TRUE information about golf swing in one place. Even though this stuff had been done by great players for a long time, there is no one who has yet to actually put all this information in one place. You all are doing a great service to not only all the weekend warrior golf fanatics, but also the golfing industry as a whole and I could see this project resulting in a lot of very happy golfers who are no longer befuddled by the mounds of useless information in the golfing world.

Thanks.

All you teachers and naysayers who hang on to false ideals watch out!

I could out teach 'em all with the old stuff. Or their stuff.

I am not an expert, but by using the shoulder complexes a golfer would be able to manipulate the hands even with a straight left arm to have the hands moving up and in at impact.

I do remember Brian and Michael advocating a slightly bent left arm at the top of the backswing so that the average golfer could learn to feel what it feels like to move the clubhead away from the ball at the start of the downswing.

You are getting it, bra.....

l
But what do you do with a flipper? A lot of TGM stuff has now been debunked, but some of it was really helpful in trying to get the flipper not to flip.

My dad hits every shot with his right hand. He has no swing, he just flips at everything.

Body positioning + plus well timed toss = great results

Wouldn't just tossing these things out automatically fix his flip? Maybe just eliminating these swing mechanics and not replacing them with anything else other than closing the gap between the clubhead and the ball might be the cure.

Might work if done correctly.

...you are straightening your right arm in a straight line to a point on the plane line which is about 2-3' in front of the ball...

YIKES!!!!!!!

The right arm is attached to the hands which DO NOT EVER EVER go to the plane line.

Geezamwillikers!!!

Does it help the average golfer to create more power and a sufficiently forward swing bottom? Oh, yeah. You bet your ass it does.

"The easiest thing to do in golf instruction, is make a hacker and better hacker."

Brian, similar question to post no. 185. How would you change "Confessions of a Former Flipper' based on this new information?

Working on it.

I visualized casting a fishing rod behind me. With a little assistance from the pivot it is much easier to square up at impact.

Yesterday I was hitting 3/4 punch shots only 5-10 yards behind my full swing. Punching my driver around 270 yards. It was crazy!

And guess what? It was the first time I was actually able to lower my trajectory. Who would have thought?

The hands and the club head have and OUTWARD & AWAY FROM THE TARGET PATH from the top.

They have a OUTWARD & AWAY path relative to the chest as well.

You are getting it!

I think the Australian pro referred to earlier in the thread is Peter Croker. He suggests throwing the clubhead at the ball as fast and as early with your hands as you can to start the downswing. Is this similar to "closing the gap"?

I saw him teach live.

Nothing like what I did for 7 hours today.

If the weight properly fishhooks and you incorporate the fiddle and carry I feel, and Michael and Brian I'd like your thoughts, that you'd achieve the proper tangential motion. If you keep the wrists soft and get a good dump I feel like you'd be set.

Sounds good to me.

I don't know if this helps. In Watson's latest book, he says you can't start unhinging the wrists too soon in the downswing - as long as your weight has shifted onto your front foot. Nicklaus wrote the same thing in his book, The Full Swing, which Brian calls the "red pants, green shirt" book.

Of course, nobody listened for a long time.

Question for the show:

Are these data findings specific to one of the two models, (Hogan/Sergio), (Nicklaus, Toms), or both?

Thanks

Model independent.

The aiming point is a point on the target line at which you aim pp #3 or the butt of the club at the TOP of the BS.

Listen close.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER does this happen.

On this sentence alone, you lose ALL credibility.

I tried some of the ideas on the range today. Doesn't work for me at all. But then again maybe I was doing it already.

This thread IS NOT AN INSTRUCTION ARTICLE.

The videos are NOT INSTRUCTION VIDEOS.

They will come.

They won't be free.

The problem here is that Manzella has been selling FATS IN THE IMPACT INTERVAL on this forum on the basis of "evidence from his scientists". So which one of you two is wrong ?

You.

You are a coo-coo head.

Where did anyone say the release is started by some force across the shaft.

IN BOTH DIRECTIONS btw.

Must just be over your head.

The boy who cried wolf: "see all that stuff I used to say, forget it. I've got someting new now, something better something more accurate".

I've been having something better EVERY DAY OF MY 30 year teaching career.

Except for the six months I tested the book literalists crap.

Brian and Michael are not scientists. They are golf pros/teachers. I really don't think all the scientific stuff suits them. It like they're trying to be something they're not.

The scientists need someone to get this to the masses.

It HAS TO BE us.

Can't you see all these other yahoos want to RUN FROM THE facts????

Geez....

A person/cultist that's drowning always fights the hardest just before they go under. It's hard work trying to save a drowning person they want to pull you under with them.

Yup.

That's how the world works its a fluid environment, out with the things that don't work or are obsolete, you can stay with the flat worlder's or move forward, up to you.

Yuppers.

So really Freddie Couples is the mechanical wonder of the golf swing world now? Perfect execution?

Double yuppers.

Umm.... do you know anything about physics?

Hee hee.

 

[lia41985]

Thanks for your thoughts, Brian. Keep up the great work.

 

[natep]

Best thread in a while!!

Thanks!

 

[JEREMY5577]

Anybody else out there who has been working on this get the feeling of the downswing as 1 giant lever action? Like 1 move left side fights the right side bam right into the back of the ball. This question would apply to those who have been out working on this stuff. Not the guys in their underwear quoting physics books.

 

[lia41985]

So really Freddie Couples is the mechanical wonder of the golf swing world now? Perfect execution?

And Daly too, I think. Check it: John Daly Golf Swings DL FO 300 FPS (how many extraordinary power sources does he demonstrate?) - YouTube

 

[Jwat]

Anybody else out there who has been working on this get the feeling of the downswing as 1 giant lever action? Like 1 move left side fights the right side bam right into the back of the ball. This question would apply to those who have been out working on this stuff. Not the guys in their underwear quoting physics books.

Ha!

Today I got my right elbow back up in the BS. At least 3 of my lessons with BManz, he had me flaring it up a little. It would get my right arm off of my side and help me turn better as well as carry. Now I think it is really assisting the start of the downswing working the hands/arms away from my body.

Might be a good move to try for an underplaner.

 

[Kevin Shields]

So really Freddie Couples is the mechanical wonder of the golf swing world now? Perfect execution?

He has been for me since the first time I ever saw him hit it.

 

[dschultz6072]

He has been for me since the first time I ever saw him hit it.

And me too.

<---- Be still, my heart.

 

[dbl]

I will chime in as part of the the "tried it today" crowd. First, after the Marbella lesson, Brian had me in a new backswing which was like an exaggerated SD backswing. Orthodox, just I needed to get direction on something I wasn't comfortable doing. Gets me in a great top of backswing position. The downswing in this hands-on session's pattern was helped by a shift and separation of the hips from the hands. Hmmm. So today in trying this thread's release out, I added the initial backwards throw and kabamm! Squaring, good trajectory and longer with ease. Makes a different pattern from the lesson, but is probably superior, Will continue to evaluate when I get range and course time.

 

[pokerlife]

Maybe the great Bobby Jones had it all figured out when he said

"The great fault in the average golfer's conception of his stroke is that he considers the shaft of the club a means of transmitting actual physical force to the ball, whereas it is in reality merely the means of imparting velocity to the club head"

 

[carland]

In Watson's latest book, he says you can't start unhinging the wrists too soon in the downswing - as long as your weight has shifted onto your front foot.

Does the weight shift onto the left foot cause the coupling point to go out and away from the target at the start of the downswing? I think I understand this idea from Jacobs' first video, but don't understand how you accomplish it. He recommends "closing the gap" but I missed how you move the hands out and away.

If the hands move in their own circular path, does that cause the coupling point to go out and away at the start of the downswing? Looking at the golfer face on, maybe his hands get to 11:00 on a clock at the top of the backswing. As the hands start down, they move through 10:00 and 9:00, both points farther away from the target, which is in the direction of 3:00. if this is right (not saying it is, just asking), what does the golfer do to get his hands moving on the correct circular path?

 

[BertramSterling]

I'm still not grasping how to take it to the range. Maybe I need to watch these videos a couple more times, but it seems to me that they stress above all hand path.

But what do I need to exaggerate in order to achieve the desired hand path?

Imagine the following axes along three dimensions:

• Vertical axis (Face-On and DTL)
  
• Horizontal axis (Face-On)
  
• Horizontal axis (DTL)

Of these three axes, which are the highest priority, in order? I have absolutely no idea, but I'll take this stab at guessing the order of priority:

1. Feel like you are pushing your hands backward (Face-On view)
   
2. Feel like you are pushing your hands downward
   
3. Feel like you are pushing your hands behind your toes (DTL view)

Do I have this right? Are all three of these feels essential? Or are one or two of them completely unnecessary? Does this make any sense whatsoever? Just thinking out loud. Would appreciate it if anyone could try to nudge me in the right direction here.

I'm not sure anything wants to be exaggerated. I feel its more of a case of the hands forward, aiming point style, was already an exaggeration, and leads to the hand path being too far down and especially out. As others have said, if your left shoulder is going up & in, then your hands should also travel up & in (unless you have some manipulation i.e. throwing them out at some point infront of the ball).

Disclaimer: I refer to forward hands, aiming point, as presented in The Impact Zone (Bobby Clampett), as I quoted earlier. I'm sure others advocated the same thing as Bobby too. Apparently, though, there was another 'aiming point' concept that involved the hands travelling up & in (?) and it seems I (and everyone else) was unaware of this until now...

Force across the shaft I'm reading as... 'lag pressure' being actually more common in higher handicap players and almost non-existent in tour players. Ironically, I feel I need this force across the shaft to force the hands out to the aiming point - its a place the swinging golf club doesn't want to go naturally. So for me a better low point for the hands (bottoming out earlier) means I don't need or create any lag pressure.

Anyone can expand/correct on this?

 

[rprevost]

Anybody else out there who has been working on this get the feeling of the downswing as 1 giant lever action? Like 1 move left side fights the right side bam right into the back of the ball. This question would apply to those who have been out working on this stuff. Not the guys in their underwear quoting physics books.

The feel is very, very different from what I have had. For three years or more--gotta look at when I joined this forum--I have been trying to get forward shaft lean and a flat left wrist through impact. Trying to do that made it a lot harder for me to swing the club, even though I fancied myself as a TGM swinger. In what seemed to me COFF fashion, I was trying to get my right shoulder down the plane line so that I could push my hands forward at impact. It was a slow-go for me, and I was not achieving what I thought I would. When I bought NHA and finally gathered what the Yellow Brick Road was, and started swinging left to control low point, I got better. I played my best golf using that pattern. It was harder to focus on a lot of forward shaft lean with carry, drop, and swinging "away from the wall." Most recently, I went back to the deeper SD backswing and re-introduced the duck hook to my repertoire. I am traditionally an underplaner and trying the SD backswing with my attempts to have a lot of forward shaft lean made it worse.

Since I saw MJ's video, I have tried to monitor my hands (ironic isn't it? "Educate the hands!) I have tried to swing my hands left from their hands low point and have the butt of the club pointed at my left hip when it lines up (maybe pointing a little more toward the center of my body). I just haven't thought at all of hands-forward, shaft-lean. The big difference in feel has been speed. This happens so fast relative to what I was doing, that is, trying to hold a flat left wrist way past impact. I feel almost like it is a pure arm swing with little or no pivot. With my previous swing thought, I had to pivot like crazy to get my left hip out of the way to get my hands so far forward. Consciously trying to swing to the point where both arms are straight takes a lot of time, relatively speaking. Now I feel my arms a lot more because I have to swing them so fast in order to line up the club so quickly. You cannot close that gap fast enough if you are trying to screw driver the wrist in order to square up the club at impact. See MJ's video # 2! I know that I am pivoting reasonably well because the ball flight is straight, high, and long. I still have to pivot to swing the hands left from their low point. If I don't pivot, my left hip gets in the way of the club swinging through, forcing the club to swing out to the right and my backing the shaft up in order to square the club face. In fact, in order to swing my hands left from their low point, I feel that I am snapping my left hip out of the way. (Note the movement of MJ's left hip when he demonstrates in both the videos. That what I see him doing.) So for the first time, I feel like I am snapping the kinetic chain like I am supposed to. All in all, it is as if, as Brian said, everything is a reaction to the proper release. But the feel is that I am releasing the club much sooner and faster, using a lot less body and pivot than I was, much more handsey. If that is what you mean by "1 giant lever action," I say yes, that is what I feel.

 

[ekennedy]

David Toms SwingVision from Crowne Plaza Invitational (2011) - YouTube

Turn the audio down and enjoy the video. DT closes the gap beautifully.