The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Kevin Shields]

I would love to hear some elaboration on CP travel and its contribution to the Yips.. thoughts gentlemen?

Read welshdentist's post but basically your mind wants to hit it and if you hold on or take the CP past or down you'll be in a position for a last second yip. Every player ive seen with the chipping or pitching yips that I can remember holds on.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

At one time I scoffed at short game flippers. I used to think how ridiculous they were adding loft instead of just opening the face and dragging the handle with their pivot.

I had the opportunity to play and practice quite a bit of golf in the late 90's with a 100-125 money list tour player and a couple of other 3rd "stagers" while living in Tampa. They never took divots outside of the bunker in the short game. Because I was so brainwashed, I disregarded their technique. I thought they just had years to practice their "faulty technique" and that was why they could get away with it.

Thanks again to Brian and team for proving those guys right.

 

[BertramSterling]

welshdentist:

Good post
Yeah, I think it is a huge discovery for chipping/pitching too. Great anyway, but especially for short game. A long way back in this thread when TGM people were all defensive I think the short game videos with the no-release, super flat left wrist, downward chop were being forgotten. That method did more to ruin my game than anything too. Especially if you try and work backwards by 'flushing' a little chip in this way, and then working on a longer swing and maintaining the impact conditions.

I've certainly not been as far down that road as you, but fat/thin shots getting worse as I 'improved my technique' (as per TGM flat left wrist etc) is quite frustrating. In the end, and fairly recently, I just accepted that standing quite open on short shots helped me and now I know why (it helped me get my hands moving up and in more, relative to the target line).

Also, I did the same - 64 degree wedge laying about somewhere that didn't get as high as the Bobby Jones 5-iron demonstrated somewhere in this thread!



GeoffDickson:

I was thinking about this myself. I suppose there is a difference between playing a regular shaft club for years, and being able to generate more speed (over time), but (subconciously?) capping the speed to produce a playable shot. A difference, that is, between a tour player with 120 mph just swinging a lady flex shaft at full tilt..

Of course, what I expect and what actually happens are usually two different things.

I'm genuinely interested in this as someone who has a driver swing speed of around 105, with the occasional 115 and I don't know how or why? Driver shaft is stiff, not x-stiff. Tend to usually hit left and low as a bad shot too. Not someone to blame the club though, so I figure it is my shoddy technique. This is fairly recent btw, so not had chance to try different clubs/launch monitor etc.

 

[birly-shirly]

At one time I scoffed at short game flippers. I used to think how ridiculous they were adding loft instead of just opening the face and dragging the handle with their pivot.

I had the opportunity to play and practice quite a bit of golf in the late 90's with a 100-125 money list tour player and a couple of other 3rd "stagers" while living in Tampa. They never took divots outside of the bunker in the short game. Because I was so brainwashed, I disregarded their technique. I thought they just had years to practice their "faulty technique" and that was why they could get away with it.

Thanks again to Brian and team for proving those guys right.

Lindsey - have you come right around to thinking that those "short game flippers" are doing it right (and are doing it the only right way), or do you think that it's just a valid alternative and that an open-faced, more downward attack is still a reasonable option too?

Do you think that there might be some golfers for whom the latter technique might, on balance, be a better choice even if it limits their options somewhat?

 

[Kevin Shields]

I know you asked Lindsey but Im not sure you would ever want to do something that is harder to do, provides less margin for error and limits the amount of shots you can hit.

 

[welshdentist]

Lindsey - have you come right around to thinking that those "short game flippers" are doing it right (and are doing it the only right way), or do you think that it's just a valid alternative and that an open-faced, more downward attack is still a reasonable option too?

Do you think that there might be some golfers for whom the latter technique might, on balance, be a better choice even if it limits their options somewhat?

Whatever works for that player to get the ball closest, most often, under pressure?

I think there may be much more room for error in the left wrist release, but am no fountain of knowledge.

 

[BertramSterling]

I think what feels natural (and comfortable) plays some part in it, and I've not yet met anyone who feels the hands forward, downward chop isn't forced. At least at first - years of re-training yourself to do it doesn't count.

 

[birly-shirly]

I know you asked Lindsey but Im not sure you would ever want to do something that is harder to do, provides less margin for error and limits the amount of shots you can hit.

Well, put like that, I see your point!

I don't want to get into the whole debate of whether or not this is completely original - but I do get the impression that this is similar to the way that Stan Utley teaches pitching. I'm definitely not saying it's wrong - but there do seem to be people who find it easier to drill shots with shaft lean and a leading edge contact. In fact, that's how Utley teaches chipping.

I get that you'd limit your options for high floaty wedge shots - just wondering whether a more restricted technique might be easier for some people to execute. Or indeed, whether we should have both shots down because circumstances might favour one rather than the other.

 

[ekennedy]

Whatever works for that player to get the ball closest, most often, under pressure?

I think there may be much more room for error in the left wrist release, but am no fountain of knowledge.

That's the definition of insanity right there. I'm sticking with the FLW, pivot driven pitch shot because it "feels" right? Try setting up with no weight left, mid-body hands and a slightly forward ball position. Make tons of back and forth swings allowing the clubhead to do whatever it wants to do for a while. I'll bet you can swing for an hour and not make a divot.

 

[siksta]

In regards to the past couple posts on chipping and pitching and Lindseys comments on him watching some Tour guys taking no divots where does Mickelsons no release short game come in? Except for his so called flop/cut he claims or feels no release. I understand that clubs release no matter what but his method is different than the so-called tour pitch. There's video somewhere of him pitching and no way is he bending thru impact or beyond? comments? Or is the past couple posts in regards to the TGM flat/wrist? Thank You

 

[Brian Manzella]

In regards to the past couple posts on chipping and pitching and Lindseys comments on him watching some Tour guys taking no divots where does Mickelsons no release short game come in? Except for his so called flop/cut he claims or feels no release. I understand that clubs release no matter what but his method is different than the so-called tour pitch. There's video somewhere of him pitching and no way is he bending thru impact or beyond? comments? Or is the past couple posts in regards to the TGM flat/wrist? Thank You

You can ABSOLUTELY do everything EXACTLY THE SAME with the PATH OF THE COUPLING POINT and simply "catch" the club as it would have went by.

Get it?

 

[JEREMY5577]

You can ABSOLUTELY do everything EXACTLY THE SAME with the PATH OF THE COUPLING POINT and simply "catch" the club as it would have went by.

Get it?

Brian are you saying you can do everything the same except close the gap? Little confused the Mickelson thing has puzzled me.

 

[Brian Manzella]

You can "close the gap" and "catch" the shaft as it would have past the left arm.

 

[siksta]

Got it. In reference to Mickelson by no means is he dragging the handle thru or trying to hold lag i hope not to confuse i got confused on the yipping posts prior

 

[Lindsey Newman]

I spent years not allowing the clubhead to pass my hands in the short game including putting. I am a literalist and took lag, forward lean and non-flip action by the book.

I practice as hard as anyone with a family and full time job, but for the life of me could not get my short game, no-flip technique to produce the shots I see great players produce. Finally, after years of dragging the handle I began to use the OPPOSITE motion and my short game has improved dramatically. Now, if you're like me, it takes a huge commitment to go against everything that you thought was LAW. I really gave the opposite technique my best effort and began to see benefits. It's very scary if you had committed yourself to drag and lag.

I understand the fear of thinking that the flick in the short game is what causes fat and bladed shots. I understand the perceived safety net of forward lean in the short game, but it's a HUGE lie. It does not work and no one traps TRUE pitch shots or takes divots with chips.

The yipps come from trying to add loft to a dragged sand wedge. You know you're gonna hit it low and hot so you spasm to add loft and soften the shot. I've lived that nightmare and it's gone forever!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Just so this doesn't get buried in the thread....

 

[ZAP]

I spent years not allowing the clubhead to pass my hands in the short game including putting. I am a literalist and took lag, forward lean and non-flip action by the book.

I practice as hard as anyone with a family and full time job, but for the life of me could not get my short game, no-flip technique to produce the shots I see great players produce. Finally, after years of dragging the handle I began to use the OPPOSITE motion and my short game has improved dramatically. Now, if you're like me, it takes a huge commitment to go against everything that you thought was LAW. I really gave the opposite technique my best effort and began to see benefits. It's very scary if you had committed yourself to drag and lag.

I understand the fear of thinking that the flick in the short game is what causes fat and bladed shots. I understand the perceived safety net of forward lean in the short game, but it's a HUGE lie. It does not work and no one traps TRUE pitch shots or takes divots with chips.

The yipps come from trying to add loft to a dragged sand wedge. You know you're gonna hit it low and hot so you spasm to add loft and soften the shot. I've lived that nightmare and it's gone forever!

So when I see Kevin next week I am going to have him try to unteach me dragging the handle. This is going to be interesting. I know I can be WAY better from 50 yards on in. Sometimes it is just swing and hope for me right now. Stupid learning.

 

[whipnzip]

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mfDasDW1RbM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Good vid, the last 4.5 minutes were the most enlightening; was well explained.

There are no straight lines in a circle would negate trying to keep the hands ahead of the clubhead, working towards the target.
I would also figure some will have more forward lean depending on their grip. A stronger grip, you have to have a little more forward lean.

On a personal note, I'd learned one thing about the left-hand, and clubface at impact (25-years ago), and learned it the hard way after too hitting too many rightward shots by trying to hold off the release as long as possible; get the back of the left hand facing the target at impact. It worked. The second in relation to release was to get the left elbow folded down as quickly as possible in front of the body in the through swing; doing that forbids you from trying to hold anything off.

 

[welshdentist]

I spent years not allowing the clubhead to pass my hands in the short game including putting. I am a literalist and took lag, forward lean and non-flip action by the book.

I practice as hard as anyone with a family and full time job, but for the life of me could not get my short game, no-flip technique to produce the shots I see great players produce. Finally, after years of dragging the handle I began to use the OPPOSITE motion and my short game has improved dramatically. Now, if you're like me, it takes a huge commitment to go against everything that you thought was LAW. I really gave the opposite technique my best effort and began to see benefits. It's very scary if you had committed yourself to drag and lag.

I understand the fear of thinking that the flick in the short game is what causes fat and bladed shots. I understand the perceived safety net of forward lean in the short game, but it's a HUGE lie. It does not work and no one traps TRUE pitch shots or takes divots with chips.

The yips come from trying to add loft to a dragged sand wedge. You know you're gonna hit it low and hot so you spasm to add loft and soften the shot. I've lived that nightmare and it's gone forever!

In a tongue in cheek poke at certain sect of golf

Hallelujah, and AMEN!!!

The tour pros weren't doing it wrong after all

 

[welshdentist]

That's the definition of insanity right there. I'm sticking with the FLW, pivot driven pitch shot because it "feels" right? Try setting up with no weight left, mid-body hands and a slightly forward ball position. Make tons of back and forth swings allowing the clubhead to do whatever it wants to do for a while. I'll bet you can swing for an hour and not make a divot.

I think you misunderstood me. I think anyone who feels they are doing their FLW driven shot and do it to tour quality under pressure should keep doing it if they can do all they need to with the short game that way.


I thought that was they way, it caused me to have a terrible short game and am saying for me, and most players in the world, the FLW driven shot has no place in the modern short game.

I am a poster child for what that FLW driven shot can do when done the way I did it. I am working hard at letting the left wrist release naturally and absolutely NOT hold onto a FLW. By error I mean that any "bad" shots are better by NOT holding onto a FLW and driving. The bounce gives a large margin for error allowing for slightly fat or thin but a FLW driven leading edge does not, believe me, I know