The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Jared Willerson]

birly,

I am not talking about here. I am speaking of the emails, phone calls and out and out bashing that goes on other places. Perhaps I should have clarified that point.

Also, I agree that people need to be convinced either through questioning or application. I, personally have no problems with anyone questioning, disagreeing, or debating. That is what this place is all about.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Our guys are constantly being attacked as Jared stated. If you check out other sites, you will just be seeing the tip of the iceberg.

 

[birly-shirly]

Understood.

 

[spktho]

Our guys are constantly being attacked as Jared stated. If you check out other sites, you will just be seeing the tip of the iceberg.

It's brutal and a sad fact.

I, and hopefully Brian and Michael understand, feel that in order for this to be best place to find objective scientifically backed information on the golf swing, the unfounded "attacks" and questioning need to be treated with a bit less of the emotional replies. But, maybe this adds to the "entertainment" affect to keep people reading.

That being said, I really do like the tidbits of information being leaked prior to the publishing of Project 1.68. I trust that Michael and Brian have peer reviewed scientific literature that will be cited when the full manuscript is published.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Back to the topic at hand....

Quick Review

The TOP 10 Things you can not argue with in the Release Thread

1. All force "normal" to the club (toward the golfer) at impact.

2. Tour players de-loft the club much more than they hit down (in degrees).

3. It is mathematically optimal for the hands to reach low point prior to the clubhead.

4. 70% of the work done by the body only moves the body.

5. The clubshaft bends toe up and slightly lead at start down, quickly recovers, goes into lag as the club nearly last parallel pre-impact, and is in tow down lead at impact.

6. The hands and clubhead move out away from the golfer in the early downswing.

7. Just holding on to the club and pulling with the body and arms will produce no more than 70% potential clubhead speed.

8. There is absolutely nothing gained by having the clubhead accelerating at impact or have the club stay "up the left arm" providing identical D-Plane vectors at impact.

9. The hands do not move down the same plane as the clubhead.

10. There is point in the mid-hands area that makes a path that dictates many of the above, and provides a center of rotation of right hand/left hand bending and arching.

Now, go make up a way to teach.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Some folks out there are wondering whos swing we measured to come up with the zero force across the shaft at impact ideal.

Answer: We measured nobody, SCIENTISTS MEASURED LOTS OF GOLFERS OF ALL ABILITIES.

We've got a hell of an ALL-STAR team of scientists and many of them will be speaking at the ANTI-SUMMMIT II.

All you golf swing theorists out there.....ya'll need to come to the event and learn something REAL.

 

[natep]

7. Just holding on to the club and pulling with the body and arms will produce no more than 70% potential clubhead speed.

Does that mean a swing that would look similar to this after impact?

...or maybe this also?

EDIT: Not being confrontational about it, just asking what seems like the obvious question and looking for clarification.

 

[dbl]

Thread Title Question - it's called "The Release -...."

How about the Line It Up Release - or some other name? I'm supposing there are other releases, and this is ONE release, right?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Back to the topic at hand....

Quick Review

The TOP 10 Things you can not argue with in the Release Thread

1. All force "normal" to the club (toward the golfer) at impact.

2. Tour players de-loft the club much more than they hit down (in degrees).

3. It is mathematically optimal for the hands to reach low point prior to the clubhead.

4. 70% of the work done by the body only moves the body.

5. The clubshaft bends toe up and slightly lead at start down, quickly recovers, goes into lag as the club nearly last parallel pre-impact, and is in tow down lead at impact.

6. The hands and clubhead move out away from the golfer in the early downswing.

7. Just holding on to the club and pulling with the body and arms will produce no more than 70% potential clubhead speed.

8. There is absolutely nothing gained by having the clubhead accelerating at impact or have the club stay "up the left arm" providing identical D-Plane vectors at impact.

9. The hands do not move down the same plane as the clubhead.

10. There is point in the mid-hands area that makes a path that dictates many of the above, and provides a center of rotation of right hand/left hand bending and arching.

Now, go make up a way to teach.

A very good summary and very clear. I felt that some of these points must be correct when running my biokinetic researches. Two loose comments from my part though:

ad.4. It may be true but let's not forget that moving main body moves its free distal parts too per se.

ad.9. That is why, IMO, the most powerful natural combination is to hit with OTT move but from inside which all best ballstrikers did.

Cheers

 

[welshdentist]

Does that mean a swing that would look similar to this after impact?

...or maybe this also?

EDIT: Not being confrontational about it, just asking what seems like the obvious question and looking for clarification.

I am not a pro or teacher, just a student of the game I have no "horse in the race" (Thank God).

The Trevino and Hogan pictures, are the just not lining up later? Rather than pulling on the handle? Does lining up later "feel" like pulling on the handle as the clubhead doesn't pass the hands as soon? Mr Hogan certainly isn't taking or didn't take Pork Chop divots, neither did Lee Trevino (in general)

Honest question and would like to know what those who do this for a living think, and anyone else.

Would it be true that their CP point is moving up through impact even if they were just pulling the club through with their arms and body?

Would Hogan/Trevino be hitting a below optimum distance shot here? For "accuracy" rather than distance?

Would the goal be to find the optimum balance for an individual golfer between pulling with the arms and body, and lining up early, to produce optimum accuracy/distance combination for that golfer? And it would be the role of the teaching pro/coach to establish this.

One end of the model lining up bang on impact with no lean or loft added, to the opposite end of lining up later delivering less loft but with a shallow angle of attack due to the cp point rising?

With what is known about the cp path can the club now be lined up sooner without a loss of accuracy but increased distance?

Exciting stuff this....

EDIT

Hmm rewatched the CPP video of Brain, answered most of that

 

[scorekeeper]

birly,



ok

 

[Jared Willerson]

@scorekeeper, the only reason it bothers me is because Brian is a friend of mine.

Thanks for keeping score.

 

[scorekeeper]

@scorekeeper, the only reason it bothers me is because Brian is a friend of mine.

ok

 

[Jared Willerson]

I am not the least bit "upset", concerned, maybe, but not upset. I didn't even think I reacted with any anger, I was merely pointing out what is happening. There wasn't any malice in my posts. Do I defend Brian and other Instructors here? Yes. Do I lose sleep over golf swing theory wars? No.

 

[JDMAC]

Our guys are constantly being attacked as Jared stated. If you check out other sites, you will just be seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Literal "reply with quote" here:
"The truth, indeed, is something that mankind, for some mysterious reason, instinctively dislikes. Every man who tries to tell it is unpopular, and even when, by the sheer strength of his case, he prevails, he is put down as a scoundrel." - HL Mencken

 

[dschultz6072]

Our guys are constantly being attacked as Jared stated. If you check out other sites, you will just be seeing the tip of the iceberg.

I can only imagine. I showed the first video to some PGA guys and they literally took it as being spat in the face. "He's teaching a flip! Hands come ahead of the clubhead!" That was only the beginning. I don't think the message will get to too many people soon enough. Maybe after the GTE guys are well and done with golf and are using walkers to get around, then their kids' kids will know the truth about who really cracked the code.

I suck at this game but this stuff fascinates me. I don't know how lost I would have been without trying to learn this game well after I had access to the internet, let alone before the internet was any good. Thank you BManz and company for having the cajones to be passionate about finding the truth and not being afraid to admit what you once thought was truth was actually not so truthful.

 

[carland]

The TOP 10 Things you can not argue with in the Release Thread

6. The hands and clubhead move out away from the golfer in the early downswing.

9. The hands do not move down the same plane as the clubhead.

10. There is point in the mid-hands area that makes a path that dictates many of the above, and provides a center of rotation of right hand/left hand bending and arching.

6. If "away" means that the hands move farther from the target to start the downswing, what does "out" mean in relation to either the target or the target line?

9. Since the coupling point between the hands and clubhead do not rotate around the same center, what does the plane of the hands look like compared to the plane of the clubhead in the downswing?

10. In general given each person's physical differences, do the hands start the downswing by moving away from the target (I don't know what the "out" means) then drop to their low point near the front of the right leg and then rise up and move left to and through impact?

Thanks.

 

[natep]

I am not a pro or teacher, just a student of the game I have no "horse in the race" (Thank God).

The Trevino and Hogan pictures, are the just not lining up later? Rather than pulling on the handle? Does lining up later "feel" like pulling on the handle as the clubhead doesn't pass the hands as soon? Mr Hogan certainly isn't taking or didn't take Pork Chop divots, neither did Lee Trevino (in general)

Honest question and would like to know what those who do this for a living think, and anyone else.

Would it be true that their CP point is moving up through impact even if they were just pulling the club through with their arms and body?

Would Hogan/Trevino be hitting a below optimum distance shot here? For "accuracy" rather than distance?

I agree that Hogan/Trevino appear to be "flicking" it after impact, rather than though the ball, in those photos above. Brian said in one of the videos that if the left shoulder moves fast enough away from the ball, then the club will appear to stay up the left arm longer and the flick will happen after impact. But he didnt say in that same video that this would result in a 30% speed loss. Thats what I'm asking about, when he says pulling with the arms and body only allows 70% max power, is he talking about a swing where the "flick" happens after impact?

 

[spktho]

Thats what I'm asking about, when he says pulling with the arms and body only allows 70% max power, is he talking about a swing where the "flick" happens after impact?

I'd say no flick at all.

 

[MikeD2]

ad.9. That is why, IMO, the most powerful natural combination is to hit with OTT move but from inside which all best ballstrikers did.

Dariusz, could you explain what you mean here?

Thanks.