The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

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Quick Review

The TOP 10 Things you can not argue with in the Release Thread

1. All force "normal" to the club (toward the golfer) at impact.

2. Tour players de-loft the club much more than they hit down (in degrees).

3. It is mathematically optimal for the hands to reach low point prior to the clubhead.

4. 70% of the work done by the body only moves the body.

5. The clubshaft bends toe up and slightly lead at start down, quickly recovers, goes into lag as the club nearly last parallel pre-impact, and is in tow down lead at impact.

6. The hands and clubhead move out away from the golfer in the early downswing.

7. Just holding on to the club and pulling with the body and arms will produce no more than 70% potential clubhead speed.

8. There is absolutely nothing gained by having the clubhead accelerating at impact or have the club stay "up the left arm" providing identical D-Plane vectors at impact.

9. The hands do not move down the same plane as the clubhead.

10. There is point in the mid-hands area that makes a path that dictates many of the above, and provides a center of rotation of right hand/left hand bending and arching.

Now, go make up a way to teach.

Brian, if all force is normal at impact and shaft deflection has the head toe down and leading at impact, how are tour players de-lofting the club?

I have long suspected this was the case given the crazy long distance and comparatively low ball flight reported on their irons. I'm having trouble, however, visualizing how they de-loft the club given this current model.

Great thread.
 
If clubfitting is hugely important, than so would ball flight. If a clubfitter is getting the player's desired ball flight, then how improperly fit could they be?

The thought of the shaft doing all of those things in 3 tenths of a second is making my head hurt.
 
miked2,

there are tons of factors to the delivered loft:

-static loft
-shaft lean
-angle of attack
-amount of lead
-ball's cog versus clubhead's cog - if clubhead's cog is higher than balls, the face will be delofted - (in a related note, a certain small distance up the shaft is factored into the overall club head's cog - an inch or two) - and remember the ball gets its orders during the midpoint of the impact interval - after some loft changes occur
-cut angle and it's related phenomema - like heat, sound, etc...

whew
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Dariusz, could you explain what you mean here?

Thanks.

It means that the hands go OTT while sweetspot shallowing to the inside which would be impossible if the path of hands and sweetspot is identical in 3-D. One can kill two birds with one shot here - not to lose power without losing tush line and deliver the clubface still from the inside = what all great rotary swingers did. There are additional advantages as well (think EEP).
Most probably it is not what Brian thought as the most obbious when formulating his point no.9 but I correlated it immediately.

Cheers
 
It means that the hands go OTT while sweetspot shallowing to the inside which would be impossible if the path of hands and sweetspot is identical in 3-D. One can kill two birds with one shot here - not to lose power without losing tush line and deliver the clubface still from the inside = what all great rotary swingers did. There are additional advantages as well (think EEP).
Most probably it is not what Brian thought as the most obbious when formulating his point no.9 but I correlated it immediately.

Cheers

Am I missing the idea here, because this sounds like the hands going out towards the ball and the club falling under?
 

djd

New
It means that the hands go OTT while sweetspot shallowing to the inside which would be impossible if the path of hands and sweetspot is identical in 3-D. One can kill two birds with one shot here - not to lose power without losing tush line and deliver the clubface still from the inside = what all great rotary swingers did. There are additional advantages as well (think EEP).
Most probably it is not what Brian thought as the most obbious when formulating his point no.9 but I correlated it immediately.


Cheers

Dariusz, Brian or others in the know- can someone clarify and demonstrate from a DTL view the divergence of the hand-path and clubhead(/sweetspot)-path in the most efficient variant of the motion prescribed by this thread ... does the clubhead drop behind the hands (away from the target line) or fall in front of the hands (toward the target line) in the initial stages of the downswing when viewed from the DTL perspective? thanks.
 
Brian explains the hand and sweetspot plane here:

;203446 said:
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="400" height="200" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '/20641989']);" href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '/user1093431']);" href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '']);" href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Dariusz, plane and path are two different things.
 
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djd

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Brian explains the hand and sweetspot plane here:



Dariusz, plane and path are two different things.

is it accurate to say, then, that in both the optimized sergio and nicklaus models the hands are closer to the target line than the clubhead/sweetspot until the lowpoint of the hands?
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Am I missing the idea here, because this sounds like the hands going out towards the ball and the club falling under?

Yes, watching DTL. Watching FO hands go away from the ball/target after transition for a period of time. That's why we must think 3-D which is often tough to do in the memory.

Brian explains the hand and sweetspot plane here:



Dariusz, plane and path are two different things.

I know. BTW, it is a great little video ! Too bad I haven't watched it until today since I could reference to it instead trying to explain similar issues with my broken English.

Cheers
 
is it accurate to say, then, that in both the optimized sergio and nicklaus models the hands are closer to the target line than the clubhead/sweetspot until the lowpoint of the hands?

In the Sergio case, the hands, as shown in the video, move down a steeper plane than the sweetspot. I think it's safe to say the hands, in general move down a steeper plane than the sweetspot for all good swings--there's an angle between the hands and the clubshaft and the sweetspot is way away from the hands. Why are you asking relative to the target line?
 
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In the Sergio case, the hands, as shown in the video, move down a steeper plane than the sweetspot. I think it's safe to say the hands, in general move down a steeper plane than the sweetspot for all good swings--there's an angle between the hands and the clubshaft and the sweetspot is way away from the hands. Why are you asking relative to the target line?

Exactly - I still don't understand Dariusz :confused:

Hands coming 'over the top' sounds like hands going out to the target line too much (i.e. more horizontal than you describe)..and 'shallowing the club' to hit from the inside sounds like reverse tumble?

Unless you mean simply the hands going inside and left (from DTL view) while the club goes out. In which case I agree.
 
Back to the topic at hand....

Quick Review

The TOP 10 Things you can not argue with in the Release Thread


4. 70% of the work done by the body only moves the body.


Now, go make up a way to teach.

re. 4 - can we hear how this was determined? Was it measured from real golfers, or extrapolated from a maths model? Does it vary much between players? Are better players much more effective at transmitting the work done by their pivot into clubhead movement?

I think the claims of "effortless (or less effortful) clubhead speed" only hold up if the 70% is NOT consistent - but falls with increased skill.

Not arguing. Just clarifying...
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Exactly - I still don't understand Dariusz :confused:

Hands coming 'over the top' sounds like hands going out to the target line too much (i.e. more horizontal than you describe)..and 'shallowing the club' to hit from the inside sounds like reverse tumble?

Unless you mean simply the hands going inside and left (from DTL view) while the club goes out. In which case I agree.

Hands move on a steeper path than the clubhead means that the overall plane has been shallowed and the implication is that the downswing plane is over the backswing plane, clubhead path is below and hands over its previous backswing path.

Cheers
 
Thanks Michael, but I still have questions regarding the process.

"static loft": I had assumed by the phrase "de-lofting" the player was delivering the club at a lower than static loft.

"shaft lean": This is the one I can't get around in the new model. If force at impact is normal, how much shaft lean can a player have and still be in control of the club?

"angle of attack": "De-lofting" would suggest a steeper angle and Michael's/Brian's model suggests the pros are coming in shallower.

"amount of lead": Even a slight amount of lead would increase the loft, wouldn't it?

"ball's cog versus clubhead's cog": I get this.

"cut angle and it's related phenomema - like heat, sound, etc...": This one's way above my pay grade...

"whew" is right!

All of this begs my original question, "How do they do it?"

Your insights, as always, are most valuable.
 

dbl

New
MikeD2, I think one of the things you need to wrap you head around is loft and angle of attack being independent.

First imagine aoa of an angled surface like a clubhead, coming into the ground or sand at a given angle you choose, then say to yourself that you will be delivering a certain loft. Repeat same aoa but change the loft. Why not? I'd think your hangup is you'd be saying to yourself I can't make my hands and delivery provide independent loft and aoa. Well yes you can. They do relate to a degree but you can always provide other parameters to provide the independence - such as ball position and release point of the hands (hint in this thread the hands low point is by the right leg). So humans can find all kinds of ways to make loft and aoa separate. This may be a bit more of "problem" for handle draggers, but then this thread does not concern that situation.

As to the other bits, that's all for now. I'm sure you'll get help and see the light.
 
Thanks for the new video, Michael. Very interesting.

I had a question related to rotating the CP and swinging left. Actually, I am really looking for confirmation on a point.

Since the D-plane bomb detonated I have been switching back and forth between aiming "square" and swinging left and aiming left and hitting down sufficiently. I "discovered" a wrinkle that seems to relate to the CP idea.

Atempting to swing left I would visualize the base line of my actual swing direction (ala plane line) It was difficult for me not to have an "impact hands" look even if my hands were centered relative to the target line (considering the swing direction was now left of the target line) It then occured to me that my shaft would appear to have the look of significantly less lean when viewed from a straight on vantage point. Make sense? So my next task to figure out a way to get the shaft back to impact with the requisite amount of lean for a clean contact in proper relationship to the base line of my actual swing direction. This initially caused some panic because the only way I could keep the shaft properly oriented relative to the appropriate swing direction was to bend my left and flatten my right wrist!:eek: Does this make any sense to anyone?

The real question is do handle draggers have to aim left? It seems to me that is the only way they can zero out. So if you want to swing left with a square stance in order for the shaft to properly oriented to left aiming base line there has to be a CP release. Am I even in the parking lot on this?:eek:
 
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djd

New
In the Sergio case, the hands, as shown in the video, move down a steeper plane than the sweetspot. I think it's safe to say the hands, in general move down a steeper plane than the sweetspot for all good swings--there's an angle between the hands and the clubshaft and the sweetspot is way away from the hands. Why are you asking relative to the target line?


re: Why are you asking relative to the target line?

because i am confused by the comments, below:

o You'd be surprised at how your hand path and shaft will look if you send your hands wide and away from the target line behind you. The camera is the key to misperception. What you see from down the line misleads the viewer.

o When you make this wide, away from the target line transition and downswing, it will not look any different than a more vertical hand path, but the path of the clubhead is unbelievably different."

o 6. The hands and clubhead move out away from the golfer in the early downswing.

o 9. The hands do not move down the same plane as the clubhead.

specifically, i am confused as to whether the hands go downward (near vertically) and the clubhead is "carried" or flipped outward toward the target line or whether the hands go downward (near vertically) and the clubhead "lags" behind the hands.

so, if i understand you correctly, then: at the start of the downswing, the hands move AWAY from the TARGET (get wide) and relative to the target line, the hands (and coupling point) also move TOWARD the TARGET LINE while the clubhead/sweetspot lags behind the hands (and coupling point) - and is therefore deeper than the hands/coupling point relative to the TARGET LINE (from the DTL perspective) until the hands reach their lowpoint in both, i.e. the hogan/sergio and nicklaus/toms/gahms, optimized models.

is that correct? thanks.
 

dbl

New
dbl,

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand that AOA and delivered loft are different parameters.

Okay, but when you wrote: "angle of attack": "De-lofting" would suggest a steeper angle "
I'm not sure why you pose that suggestion if they are seen as independent...explain?
 
re: Why are you asking relative to the target line?

because i am confused by the comments, below:

o You'd be surprised at how your hand path and shaft will look if you send your hands wide and away from the target line (I think he meant target) behind you. The camera is the key to misperception. What you see from down the line misleads the viewer.

o When you make this wide, away from the target line (again I think target was meant) transition and downswing, it will not look any different than a more vertical hand path, but the path of the clubhead is unbelievably different."

o 6. The hands and clubhead move out away from the golfer in the early downswing.

o 9. The hands do not move down the same plane as the clubhead.

specifically, i am confused as to whether the hands go downward (near vertically) and the clubhead is "carried" or flipped outward toward the target line or whether the hands go downward (near vertically) and the clubhead "lags" behind the hands.

so, if i understand you correctly, then: at the start of the downswing, the hands move AWAY from the TARGET (get wide) and relative to the target line, the hands (and coupling point) also move TOWARD the TARGET LINE while the clubhead/sweetspot lags behind the hands (and coupling point) - and is therefore deeper than the hands/coupling point relative to the TARGET LINE (from the DTL perspective) until the hands reach their lowpoint in both, i.e. the hogan/sergio and nicklaus/toms/gahms, optimized models.

is that correct? thanks.

I put in bold that I think "target" is meant instead of "target line"--Brian will have to confirm if that is true or not.

At some point during the downswing the club face sweetspot has to be "flipped" to the ball. Whether it happens at the hand's lowpoint as being the optimum, I don't know. But, I feel it is happening throughout the whole downswing and probably the sooner the better, as that is the dowswing's only purpose. The whole point of this release is that the clubhead should not feel as if it is lagging at any time in the downswing, so I'm not sure how to answer that last paragraph. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable who understands your question can answer.
 
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