The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[welshdentist]

Despite this thread being boring I have a question...

From all the talk of not holding on, does this involve not just the left wrist being allowed to bend, but also the recocking of the left wrist into the followthrough?
I am not sure why but recocking the wrist is not something I had thought about until now, and secondly if we are not recocking the left wrist going through (or our intention is not to), does this make the CP path more likely to go down?

I am just thinking aloud but in "my" head keeping a flat left wrist was stopping the wrist bending and ALSO then recocking. I realise that is not the "right" way of doing TGM's method but may contribute to my poor short game trying to do the TGM thing....

 

[Brian Manzella]

I hope you and MJ realise that you guys still possess the ability to "be wrong". If you can't be wrong you can't be anything. Additionally I doubt if you guys really know it all. To talk like you know it all and everyone else know f all is just poor form. Think back five years to your convictions about certain aspects that you now know to be "wrong" and think forward to five years from now. Do you think you'll be saying exactly the same things?

Absolutely we are no where near having all the answers.

But.....

But, for all the talk about how "wrong" we were in the past, just realize this: I—and lots of other folks, MJ included—were sold the idea that TGM was science. Obviously THAT IS NOT THE CASE. So 90%+ of our "back up from old ideas" are back up from TGM.

Our current ideas come straight from scientists. I am sure we are still not 100% correct about anything, but we are closing in, and PLENTY of WRONG ideas are getting BULLDOZED. The folks that have vested interest in the stuff under the bulldozer, hope we have no idea what we are talking about.

You are hoping as well.

When you wish upon a star.........

That the CP moves up is beyond dispute, but repeating it ad nauseum doesn't make it any more right. IMO saying the same thing over and over again to a captive audience becomes boring after a while.

One of the most popular threads in golf instruction on the internet history.

I made a valid point in my post about the bending of the left wrist which you ignored only to respond with an abrasive "wrong again" comment about my tongue in cheek comment about the thread becoming boring because of the repetition of the same point over and over again, especially in relation to jeffy's swing. Who gives a sh*t about jeffy's swing apart from jeffy?

Wrong again, bro.

Jeffy is a PERFECT example of CPP moving down slightly instead of up.

I will look at your left wrist comment again when I have a minute.

Not everyone on here is clueless, and not everyone who doesn't sychophantishly agree with you is "wrong". A little humility is never a bad thing.

Plenty of really smart folks on here.

Humility?

Over-rated.

THIS SITE IS DEDICATED TO GETTING IT RIGHT.

Far as I can see, bragging a'int anywhere in this 123 page thread.

Kc8ir and footwedge,
Mike Austin was the first person I thought of when this thread first started. In fact, on Mike Jacob's forum, I made this exact point. I would love to hear Brian's thoughts on this.
Jimmy

He got a lot of the release stuff correct.

He obviously was a very smart guy.

Despite this thread being boring I have a question...

From all the talk of not holding on, does this involve not just the left wrist being allowed to bend, but also the recocking of the left wrist into the followthrough?
I am not sure why but recocking the wrist is not something I had thought about until now, and secondly if we are not recocking the left wrist going through (or our intention is not to), does this make the CP path more likely to go down?

The point here is that the left wrist bends first and then re-cocks.

If you do this, you will have a thousand times better chance to have the CPP go up.

 

[wulsy]

No more than you I would guess Kevin. I think we all need to be heard, no? I'm sure you'll agree, threads get more interesting and less interesting, hence why some last forever and some don't make 1 page. I tried to bring up a point in my thread about the dynamics of the release and its effect on the wrists. It was ignored and I was told like some dumb kid in school: "wrong again". Not nice at all.

Like I was wrong here, back in 2010?

Unfortunately I don't know any songs about force couples. But that has got to be the right answer. Force couples, centers back and up..... I think we're getting there, slowly but surely.

Or here:

Sorry guys but you are definitely wrong. Here's why: People flip in order to get the clubhead more closed/less open by getting the clubhead to overtake the hands, which closes the clubface due to the process of "canting". "Canting" is why if you forward press from the address position the clubhead opens and conversely when you move you hands to the right (backward lean the shaft) the clubhead closes. The reationship between the forward or backward leaning of the clubshaft and the clubface alignment is indisputable.

Where you guys are mixing up two distinctly different factors lies in the fact that when you move the hands to the right in the address position (backward lean) your left hand cups. If you remain in the cupped positon and move the shaft back to its original address angle you will see that the cupping of the left wrist has caused the clubface to open and and increased the loft.
Indisputable, irrefutable und undeniable. Its an open and shut case.

You're so wrong on this one its scary. My last post on this.

Why don't I just f off and find another forum? Because by discussing things on this forum, which is just more on my wavelength, I reassess my own ideas and maybe this helps me to to understand better how it all works. Like you Kevin, I want to play as well as I can. Like you I have learned some stuff on this forum which has helped me play better. And BTW, FWIW, I don't think you play that much better than me.

Sometimes you and Brian talk a little bit down to people, giving the impression that everyone who has a different opinion, must be a fool: which is your perogative and if folks don't like it they can go elsewhere, you're right. But is there really any need to talk to people like this?

I think sometimes statements on forums come across different than they are meant. Mine, your's, everyone's. Then there's the cultural differences, which effects the way people talk and discuss. In Europe people are more direct and say things which appear confrontational just to make the conversation that bit livelier. Often these comments are regarded as bad manners in USA, I think, although I may be wrong. JMHO.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Give me your left wrist idea one more time in 60 words or less.

Here is my summation of this thread and our research on this topic in 60 words or less.

From the top all force should be tangental to the club head arc, except for that which is needed to prevent jackknifing. "Mid-dowmswing" there is a force by the golfer around a point between the hands. By definition, that force is somewhat inside the arc of the club head. By impact all force should be normal to the arc.

 

[jeffy]

The dots on Jeffy and Rory are PERFECT down to the pixel.

COUPLING POINT....not logo.

Then why are they in different spots? Why does my coupling point move down an inch at impact? Why is Rory's coupling point at the base of his right hand thumb pad (and doesn't change) and mine is an inch or two lower?

Oh, and BTW, I was only using the logo as an easily identifiable reference. I never said the logo was the coupling point. But, of course, your reflexive conclusion is that everyone else is an idiot.

 

[alocirga]

Jeffy,
Just a guess but one possible explanation is you could be ulnar deviating (angle between forearms and club becoming straighter) more than
RM through impact. This would allow the logo to basically stay in the same track but the coupling point to be extended further down. Like I said, just a guess.

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy,
Just a guess but one possible explanation is you could be ulnar deviating (angle between forearms and club becoming straighter) more than
RM through impact. This would allow the logo to basically stay in the same track but the coupling point to be extended further down. Like I said, just a guess.

Thanks. At this point, I don't care. I've drawn my own dots. AINT NO HANDLE DRAGGER!!!

 

[footwedge]

Kc8ir and footwedge,
Mike Austin was the first person I thought of when this thread first started. In fact, on Mike Jacob's forum, I made this exact point. I would love to hear Brian's thoughts on this.
Jimmy

That make's 3 of us so far.

 

[footwedge]

That make's 3 of us so far.

Edit: that makes 4 of us.

 

[bcoak]

how about the thought of trying to straighten your right arm on the way down to stay wide.

 

[fronesis]

Give me your left wrist idea one more time in 60 words or less.

Here is my summation of this thread and our research on this topic in 60 words or less.

From the top all force should be tangental to the club head arc, except for that which is needed to prevent jackknifing. "Mid-dowmswing" there is a force by the golfer around a point between the hands. By definition, that force is somewhat inside the arc of the club head. By impact all force should be normal to the arc.

Can someone -- Brian or someone else -- explain what "jackknifing" means in the above quote?

Other than that, I think this is a really powerful summation. It also fits in nicely with MJ's latest video (on his forum). Very helpful.

 

[mandrin]

Give me your left wrist idea one more time in 60 words or less.

Here is my summation of this thread and our research on this topic in 60 words or less.

From the top all force should be tangental to the club head arc, except for that which is needed to prevent jackknifing. "Mid-dowmswing" there is a force by the golfer around a point between the hands. By definition, that force is somewhat inside the arc of the club head. By impact all force should be normal to the arc.

The figure illustrates Brian's remarks.

The red arrow is a vector representing the direction and amplitude of the total force exerted on the club end.

Notice that this force very quickly virtually aligns with the shaft and remains that way the remaining if the swing.

One can also relate to either wrist or club head arc - force first tangential and subsequently perpendicular to the arc.

 

[wulsy]

Here is my summation of this thread and our research on this topic in 60 words or less.

From the top all force should be tangental to the club head arc, except for that which is needed to prevent jackknifing. "Mid-dowmswing" there is a force by the golfer around a point between the hands. By definition, that force is somewhat inside the arc of the club head. By impact all force should be normal to the arc.

Ain't that the truth, bro!

Our current ideas come straight from scientists. I am sure we are still not 100% correct about anything, but we are closing in, and PLENTY of WRONG ideas are getting BULLDOZED. The folks that have vested interest in the stuff under the bulldozer, hope we have no idea what we are talking about.

You are hoping as well.

When you wish upon a star.........

No way, you got that wrong bud. I'm a fan of this stuff. I can't hope you're wrong anyway, cos I know it's right. Anyone with half a brain knows that this stuff is right.

One of the most popular threads in golf instruction on the internet history.

Good, I'm glad I contributed to it in some small wayJJ

Wrong again, bro.

Jeffy is a PERFECT example of CPP moving down slightly instead of up.

Of course he is. But once we've seen his CP moving down, then that's enough of jeffy's swing. That's all I meant.

Left wrist stuff to follow...

 

[wulsy]

What's the centre in your graphic mandrin?

 

[BertramSterling]

Brian - your explanation 'in 60 words or less' made this all really click for me. Illustration by Mandrin is great too.

Prior to this, I would have doubted I've been dragging that handle, but I sure ain't as "pure" as that illustration indicates.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

One can also relate to either wrist or club head arc - force first tangential and subsequently perpendicular to the arc.

Great Pic Mandrin... One quick question: FORCE FIRST TANGENTIAL THEN PERPENDICULAR TO THE ARC -- What word would you use to describe Perpendicular to the arc????

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Here is another similar and gorgeous image.. Author is Miura, picture source is cited in picture

 

[wulsy]

I may be wrong but, looking at the pictures, it seems to me that the release is "active". Right or wrong?

 

[Michael Jacobs]

I may be wrong but, looking at the pictures, it seems to me that the release is "active". Right or wrong?

Any full power shot contains an active torque

 

[dschultz6072]

So there's no such thing as the perfect and automatic golf swing? There's always timing involved? Timing and rhythm? Hmm...sounds like this guy