The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Brian Manzella]

You like this one better?

A PURE-D Hangle Dragger.

He NEEDS to feel a "line up."

As I posted, feel isn't real.

He is a PURE-D Hangle Dragger.

He NEEDS to feel a "line up."

Sergio is the most over-rated ballstriker in golf. Even Faldo is calling him out on it. I don't think being flippy has helped him at all.

That is downright goofy.

I saw the guy in person 20 times. He is pure.

I guess you have to know what you are looking for.

I agree that the left wrist bends at some point post-impact in swings where upper left arm rotation is minimized, like most tour players. If that feel works for him, God bless him.

Jeff,

The answers are in this thread. Not with a body oriented teacher's approach through looking a lying-like-a-dog stills.

The math is in.

We had a preview at a new model, and we are 1000000000000000% right.

Jump in or out.

Really.

 

[footwedge]

What's the closes to a perfect swing, the pendulum. Love it. Boing!

Moe Explains Pendulum - YouTube

 

[fanofSnead]

first impressions

Ben Hogan called this guy (Wild Bill Mehlhorn) http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XQeMroJlH4w/TXyxrA88TbI/AAAAAAAAAO0/X1E2O6PN0-I/s320/WildBill16.jpg the best ball striker he ever saw...

But a lot of people thought this guy http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/s...roduct/lee-trevino-swing-sequence-1971-best/# was in Hogans league as a ball striker.

Neither one of these guys were flippers, they just released the club differently.

I tried this release today, obviously knowing just enough to be dangerous since Michael and Brian haven't released any comprehensive training material yet, but here are my thoughts....

1) was hitting my irons at least 15 yards longer than normal when I made good contact
2) seemed more effortless than my current rotary type pattern
3) did not have the accuracy of my normal swing, but hell, I just took out for a test drive
4) seems more timing dependent than my current pattern (see above)
5) I think it would be easier on my back as I creep toward 50

I remember when I was getting into TGM and how this guy Make a Power Release - Instruction - Golf.com was ripped apart and called a flipper on a couple TGM sites. In the SDP video Brian talks about a toss and the left wrist does bend a little post impact, but that pattern does place force against the shaft, although Brian does say the "toss" is optional

If it wasn't Brian and Michael showing us how to learn this release I wouldn't be interested in messing around with my current swing, I'm just intrigued by the effortless power potential and it possibly being easier on my body over the long haul.

I think it shows some sack by both of these guys to come out with stuff that refutes a lot of what they taught over the years, most instructors wouldn't have the balls to alter their "system" even if it would help a lot of their students.

 

[coach]

Hmmmm...seems as though I've heard the answer somewhere before.

lol me too....been biting my tongue

 

[wulsy]

Hey Wulsy!

Since you know everything before we say it.

How many axis is there in this release.

I suspect it depends on where you regard the release as starting and ending. Additionally, whether you want to relate the rotation purely to the club's movement as a whole (including the hands); or whether you for example want to include clubhead rotation about the shaft; or whether you want to include every other body part also.

Also whether a lack of rotation about an axis constitutes rotation because you have used a force (eg normal) to prevent that rotation. It could be argued that you have effectively rotated the club in the opposite direction about that same axis.

Let me know what you mean exactly by the question and I will have a go, even at the risk of a "wrong again"..JJ. I'll even give you a one digit answer

DISCLAIMER I don't know everything, just some things. I'm here to learn. I'm not a scientist, mathematition or physist. Just a simpleton golfer who would really love to know how this thing we call the golf swing works.

 

[ej20]

Was Moe a handle dragger?Looks very likely in this swing.

 

[wulsy]

Hit it pretty short as far as I know.

 

[johnnymac2201]

Was Moe a handle dragger?Looks very likely in this swing.

We must be looking at totally different things, because he looks like he's lining it up pretty good to me. Wouldn't a "handle dragger" want a bent right wrist at impact?

Watch the video again, paying attention to the coupling point.

 

[ekennedy]

I get a kick out of how many people want to argue just to argue. I guess that's the beauty of hiding behind a computer. Me thinks if Jeffy or Wulsy were sitting at a round table, discussing the swing with Brian and Michael they would be a tad more respectful.

Once all of the information is presented, try it. If it's not for you, keep doing what you're doing. So far, the information has helped a lot of people and will eventually help almost everyone. Oh, and it's free.

Stop playing devil's advocate and show some respect.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Thanks Ekennedy, I also cant stand the devil'd advocate who just wants to argue the other side.

Also, I wonder if there's anyone on my range who wants to beat me up after listening to one of my lessons......wow

 

[golfdad]

moe is a dragger alright.

One life to live. See a dragger, call it as such.

Moe is a dragger to me. His left upper limb does not fold in time. His left arm motion is the one I was talking about. Others with in-born predisposition for rotator cuff impingement will face some excruciating consequences copying this Moe move.

But, but, but,,,,but Moe is a legend, though?!

Who cares! As far as I am concerned, Moe is a freaking genius.

Similarly, those of you that play tennis will be better off not copying how Nadal swings his topspin. You are not made for it.

 

[Mike O]

As I posted, feel isn't real.

I would say Feel is real, but that would be a whole new thread.

 

[footwedge]

One life to live. See a dragger, call it as such.

Moe is a dragger to me. His left upper limb does not fold in time. His left arm motion is the one I was talking about. Others with in-born predisposition for rotator cuff impingement will face some excruciating consequences copying this Moe move.

But, but, but,,,,but Moe is a legend, though?!

Who cares! As far as I am concerned, Moe is a freaking genius.

Similarly, those of you that play tennis will be better off not copying how Nadal swings his topspin. You are not made for it.

Who was saying copy Moe? Where did you see that? Boing!

 

[jeffy]

That is downright goofy.

I saw the guy in person 20 times. He is pure.

I guess you have to know what you are looking for.

Oh, you've heard goofier things.

I thought he was "pure" too at first. Great looking ball flight, great sound at impact, could work it both ways. I thought he was the best I'd seen.

But, when I followed him at a practice round at Augusta, it troubled me that he was hitting everything over the green. And he didn't seem to know why.

Then I started to look at his ballstriking stats. Not too impressive the past ten years, with one exception: 2005, when he ranked 11th. In 2007, he was 142. This year was his only other year in the top 50, at 41. Usually he ranks in the 60s. Good, but not great, and not worthy of all the attention paid to his swing. John Senden has been in the top five nearly every year. Joe Durant, Chris Smith, Kenny Perry, Charles Warren, Robert Allenby. Those are the names you consistently see in the top 5 over the years. Those are great ballstrikers and, combined, they probably don't attract 10% of the attention devoted to Sergio on sites like this. Now THAT'S goofy!

Then Faldo brought up this season on a telecast that Sergio had a persistent miss: a balloony toe shot. Hmmmm. Too shallow. Easy to see how that could happen with his deeply laid off downswing and the quick flip at the bottom. And that, despite this persistent miss, his dad was proud that they didn't make any swing changes. Faldo thought that was goofy. I agree.

Jeff,

The answers are in this thread. Not with a body oriented teacher's approach through looking a lying-like-a-dog stills.

You have someone in mind? I don't work with (or listen to) anyone like that.

The math is in.

We had a preview at a new model, and we are 1000000000000000% right.

Jump in or out.

Really.

It will be just that much more painful for you when the math fails. I don't trust modellers. And you'll eventually learn why!

 

[jeffy]

Keep going blind looking at stills.

Actually, I mostly watch video, preferably 300fps. I just use stills to illustrate points. You know, a picture is worth a thousand words or something like that...

 

[jeffy]

I get a kick out of how many people want to argue just to argue. I guess that's the beauty of hiding behind a computer. Me thinks if Jeffy or Wulsy were sitting at a round table, discussing the swing with Brian and Michael they would be a tad more respectful.

Oh, we get along famously around a table. Brian and Mike are great dinner company.

Stop playing devil's advocate and show some respect.

Skepticism is an essential ingredient of all rigorous scientic research. Self-reinforcing echo chambers are not.

 

[wulsy]

I get a kick out of how many people want to argue just to argue. I guess that's the beauty of hiding behind a computer. Me thinks if Jeffy or Wulsy were sitting at a round table, discussing the swing with Brian and Michael they would be a tad more respectful.

Once all of the information is presented, try it. If it's not for you, keep doing what you're doing. So far, the information has helped a lot of people and will eventually help almost everyone. Oh, and it's free.

Stop playing devil's advocate and show some respect.

eken, I for one have not disrespected anyone on this forum, let alone BM or MJ. If I was sitting at a table taking part in a discussion I would bring up the same points. I never argue the other side just for the sake of it. Those who look closer at my posts will see that I have helped move this argument on since 2010.

Don't mistake respect with deference. Brian has said recently that he doesn't know it all, it's a journey for him too. Ever heard the one about the King's new clothes? Jeffy disagrees with Brian's new ideas about the release, I agree almost 100%. Why you mention us in the same breath is a mystery to me.

Stop criticising others.

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy disagrees with Brian's new ideas about the release, I agree almost 100%.

I do? These are actually old ideas. I've been working on bending the left wrist post-impact since May or June of 2010.

I am, however, skeptical of efforts to model the golf swing. But, if that is where Brian and Mike want to focus, they should certainly go for it. I could be wrong.

 

[willgolfer]

I do? These are actually old ideas. I've been working on bending the left wrist post-impact since May or June of 2010.

I am, however, skeptical of efforts to model the golf swing. But, if that is where Brian and Mike want to focus, they should certainly go for it. I could be wrong.

jeffy, how long have you been a golf instructor? I assume you are one, yes?

 

[Martee]

A bit long.

I am sure all the answers are probably in this and few other related threads regarding the concepts being introduced. That said, I am not sure it is all that clear. Now at the start, this and the other threads were to introduce a few concepts, highlight that some ‘conventional golf wisdom’ may in fact not be supported by the scientific data and research be done and is not advised for a golfer to continue use.

Clearly all the posts have managed to introduce more than just the concepts, but to provide individual’s interpretations of these concepts which might be creating some confusion.

For me I find most of the concepts have been covered in the MJ/BM’s videos, you just need to take some time reviewing them IMO. I could be mistaken but the following is what I have taken away so far.

What I have learned or think I have learned is:
- Coupling Point – a place on the top of the golf grip where the two hands join which provides a predictable path that can be monitored on the down swing.
- Low Point of Coupling Point Path is prior to Impact

Then there is the ‘Normal’ and ‘Optimized’ which I am still digging out.

Width at the top of Downswing delays the outward movement of the club aiding in achieving Non Handle Drag Release (A BIGGIE? A KEY?)

Pre-Program any action to occur on the Down Swing, time is too short to conscientiously make adjustments and expect good consistent results


Also I think I have learned is that:
- Club Shaft leaning forward at Impact doesn’t make you a Handle Dragger
- ‘Flicking’ is good, ‘Flipping’ is not good into and through Impact
- ‘Up and In’ is good, ‘Down and Out’ is not good into and through Impact (Coupling Point path)
- Shaft Bowing (shaft kick) at impact is good and Shaft Droop will be there
- Hands leading into impact, doesn’t make you a Handle Dragger in of itself
- Applying or Creating Force across the shaft is not good
- Lag if natural is good, Lag if forced/manipulated is not good
- Hands and Club Head move at different rates

What I need to understand:
- Coupling Point upward movement....left leg straightening + back extension + left shoulder up (SHOULDER COMPLEX), but am wondering about the rotation and the ‘In’ movement.
- Swing Plane, flat, upright or in-between effects the Coupling Point Path ‘HOW?’ though it does change the fundamental path from low point which is Up and In.

Note to self, it does seem that a golfer who maintains a flat left wrist well into the follow through is probably indicative of a Handle Dragger. The club head equal or ahead of the hands at impact seems to be a trait of Non-Handle Dragger.

I still am not sure I have been able to assemble all the information required to understand the interaction of these concepts with the set-up and motion of the other golf components

Applying these concepts, overcoming common golf wisdom most likely is a ways off, at least for me. First I need to determine what it is I do. Next I need to understand how to integrate these concepts into my golf stroke and what exactly has to change. Basically I need the ‘How To’ info and I may indeed actual instruction.

Again, I await the MJ/BM videos and write ups…. (idea to research/concepts to modeling/proof of concepts to practical application to unique individuals)