The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

Status
Not open for further replies.
To me this is a case where less is more.

It is not that left wrist should be forced or manipulated to bend, it is that left wrist should not be forced or manipulated to be flat or bowed as the golf stroke progress through impact into follow through.

Artificially creating positions and alignments is not the same as Achieving positions and alignments, the former requires force and manipulation while the later is a byproduct of a motion made.
 
Thank you Mike and Brian for the feedback via the video and continued education.

Here is my posting in question, responding to the Jeffy "couple questions" thread.

"Couple observations/conjectures...
1. In retrospect, through watching Mike Jacobs' video (which confused me a lot in the beginning) and subsequent reactions from people, I have come to realize and appreciate that J's video is more suited for those who are draggers AND have issues squaring the club through impact. In other words, it will be more beneficial to those who cannot effectively release the club because they are not capable of releasing the club over in the last millisecond IF they hold onto the wrist angle for "too long or too far". J recommended to start releasing early (like casting), which is at odds with what I think is appropriate for my kids, but then, my kids do not have the problem of holding on too long and too far. In my mind, J's video is a specific prescription for a subset of golfers with a particular problem. If one is a so called dragger and has no problem releasing the club properly as evidenced by a good ball flight, then the moves suggested in the video may not apply.

2. Jeffy's pic comparisons are telling, something I have come to accept intuitively, meaning, good players release differently. If we have to put them into 2 groups, namely, regular release vs delayed release, so be it. Perhaps for some indeed the hand low point is in front of the right thigh; for others, later into the impact zone. My speculation is that for regular folks with regular timing capabilities and physicality, it is conceivable that a prolonged dragging coupled with a super fast release is MORE DIFFICULT to achieve than a release that is timed earlier. In other words, IF I were a golf teacher and have a student who drags too far and cannot square the club, I will suggest the student to back off from the extreme hold and try to release earlier. Bottom line is that everything is relative and the source of feedback of all effort is the ball flight."


I cannot possibly fathom how the above can be even disputed. Just kidding of course.

I often disclose my golf background or more accurately, the lack of, when I feel the thin ice cracking under my feet. I think it is the right time to do so again: I don't play golf (or try to like some others). I simply don't have the time to work on my game at the ABC level and since my kids started, I felt i should pay attention to them more than to myself. I cannot demonstrate golf swings or anything golf related; everything in my head is conceptual and theoretical and not from experiences.

If Mike and Brian set out to help as many golfers as possible, my goal is to help only my 2 kids. Thus, the perspective and sense of responsibility are vastly different. If things do no apply to my kids, I figure I don't have to know. But Mike and Brian need to consider the entire landscape, width and depth wise and chronologically, in order to become effective teachers for all.

I have come to conclude on some of the above points from this angle. My perspective is certainly skewed because it is narrow for a purpose: to find swing improvements for only 2 kids.

Nonetheless, I find this video from Mike and Brian more understandable and agreeable. In fact, this video should be viewed along with Mike's original video for clarifying and complementary purposes.

I came away from this video with the following:

1. Dating back in the 30's and then in the 80's, prolonged hold has been taught and coined as revolutionary.

2. Mike demonstrated in the video of hand and club travelling essentially at the same pace, which is currently considered wrong, which runs counter to something Mike said in his original video that club and hand travel at different speeds, with the club travelling 4 times faster than the hand at some points.

3. Brian summarized that

A) there should be a predictable coupling point path

B) there should be a low point of the coupling point before impact which he termed as optimized.

C) can you have a forward lean style and have a predictable and optimized coupling point path? Yes.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
It is not that left wrist should be forced or manipulated to bend, it is that left wrist should not be forced or manipulated to be flat or bowed as the golf stroke progress through impact into follow through.

Artificially creating positions and alignments is not the same as Achieving positions and alignments, the former requires force and manipulation while the later is a byproduct of a motion made.

Great stuff Marty!

An excellent description of what we are saying about the left wrist.
 
My review would be:

To avoid hanging on
To keep the clubhead releasing and freewheeling
To keep the face square to path
As to do the opposite as the downswing
To shallow out the divot
To help make the club go "normal"

Im sure Brian could correct or add to this

Nice list.
 
Here are some answers to chew on:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/30409069?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="490" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

Very interesting stuff......nice job....

A few questions.....

TGMer's would likely assume that to be "on plane" one would have to have the "flat-est left wrist in golf"... but as you so describe YOU CAN ...BEND the left wrist ON PLANE and FLATTEN the right wrist ON PLANE.... obviously the forces created in the swing are gonna be difficult for the wrists to "override"....so you'd think any effort to "keep the left wrist flat" would sacrifice speed/power/force/whatever-u-call it.

A few things....

In your analysis you talk about lining the club up and allowing the left wrist to bend...cool with that....could one also focus on "lining up the club" with the RIGHT ARM and FLATTENING the right wrist...like a booty slap motion? Some folks may deal with "right sided" stuff better than left sided....just wondering...seems that the club wants to also line up with the right forearm as well.

Another question....you have certainly been an advocate of the "twist away" or some variation of getting the "sweetspot moving from laying on the face of the plane to rotating off the face of the plane" earlier....is this prescribed "hand motion" (left wrist bent/right wrist flat) easier to do with a more "closed attachment"/"Simultaneous Release"/Twist-Away Position/"shutty face"? Could be completely wrong but it seems that it could reduce some "variables".....
 
To me this is a case where less is more.

It is not that left wrist should be forced or manipulated to bend, it is that left wrist should not be forced or manipulated to be flat or bowed as the golf stroke progress through impact into follow through.

Artificially creating positions and alignments is not the same as Achieving positions and alignments, the former requires force and manipulation while the later is a byproduct of a motion made.

I'm sure this is true. But I also suspect that if you've spent years forcing the left wrist to remain flat beyond impact - you might need to feel quite an effort just to "allow" it to bend. Old habits die hard - and what's worse, skew your perceptions of what you're actually doing.

The thing is - I'm sure the reverse holds true as well. So I'm curious to see how BM and MJ plan to teach this to folk who are habitually digging up the ground behind the ball. Not doubting, but definitely curious.
 
To me this is a case where less is more.

It is not that left wrist should be forced or manipulated to bend, it is that left wrist should not be forced or manipulated to be flat or bowed as the golf stroke progress through impact into follow through.

Artificially creating positions and alignments is not the same as Achieving positions and alignments, the former requires force and manipulation while the later is a byproduct of a motion made.

Excellent. The feeling and result of "doing less" on the downswing was a big key in my lesson.
 
I'm sure this is true. But I also suspect that if you've spent years forcing the left wrist to remain flat beyond impact - you might need to feel quite an effort just to "allow" it to bend. Old habits die hard - and what's worse, skew your perceptions of what you're actually doing.

The thing is - I'm sure the reverse holds true as well. So I'm curious to see how BM and MJ plan to teach this to folk who are habitually digging up the ground behind the ball. Not doubting, but definitely curious.

I too am interested in how they approach teaching these concepts.

For me who failed terribly in trying to hold, extend, etc these position/alignements, I found that 'Just Let It Happen', kind of like free wheeling, no intention to hold or force, in short not having forced tension, feeling of rock solid position/alignment. That works for me but then I am back subscribing too that if I set up, grip, etc correctly and then begin the motion I only have to let the body perform/react.

Think we should wait for BM/MJ 'How To'.
 
Holding and dragging too long too far may sap power but there is something else...

At several points in this recent video, both Mike and Brian have imitated/demonstrated how it looks like to be holding/dragging beyond impact. I want to bring up a point based on my experiences, which may not be that obvious unless one has studied sports medicine, dissected cadavers and managed patients with shoulder problems.

If you are a right handed golfer and swing with your left arm as the leading arm, holding and dragging at high speed into impact and beyond puts tremendous amount of stress on your left rotator cuff tendon (supraspinatus). This is especially true if the left arm elevates like a chicken wing to about 90 degrees (left arm parallel to the ground).

At this angle, the bony canal in which the rotator cuff tendon slides through is the most narrow and the tendon is pushed against a bony, often sharp area called acromion process. If this move is done repeatedly over a long term, chronic increased wear and tear may cause inflammation of this tendon, leading to discomfort, weakness and pain. Or even loss of income:) With time and without proper healing, some people may face physical impairment and possible surgical intervention.

On the contrary, if the release is properly done, the left upper arm essentially stays close to the body and the rotator cuff tendon does not face the above mentioned stress.

So Mike and Brian and other golf teachers, take note. Proper release is not only physiologically sound but also good health maintenance.

Clearly those who had taught to hold and drag forever did not know this back then. But teachers these days should be aware of this basic information.

In summary, if your left shoulder hurts, reevaluate how you release.
 
Yeah, it is damned hard to convince yourself to let that left wrist bend after thousands of flat left wrist swings. Seems almost sacriligious. Lot of work to do.

Maybe terminology gets in the way of understanding. Flipping the club head is the not the same as flicking the wrists. Maybe the two are often assumed to be the same thing.

Drew
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top