The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[JEREMY5577]

Mike O, IMO your post describing the release ideas in this thread is waaaayyyyy off. You have completely misunderstood the concept. JMHO. Robbohank puts it nicely.

Wulsy, last week you said some of us just weren't getting it. And I got defensive because I was working so hard at it. Well it turns out you are partiality right. I have been going through bmanz old videos and didn't realize how many fundamental problems I had with my swing. I figured "the release" was the solve to all my problems. I was having a little success with the away from target thought so I thought I knew everything. I don't think people should think just because this thread is 1,000 pages that it has all the answers. My suggestion would be to watch Brian's videos keeping mind away from the target to start the down swing and don't drag the handle. Or wait for the new videos, but he's so busy I think that will be a little while.

 

[jerry1967]

Mike O, IMO your post describing the release ideas in this thread is waaaayyyyy off. You have completely misunderstood the concept. JMHO. Robbohank puts it nicely.

What is your opinion Wulsy?

 

[Mike O]

Mike O, IMO your post describing the release ideas in this thread is waaaayyyyy off. You have completely misunderstood the concept. JMHO. Robbohank puts it nicely.

Wulsy,
Jerry was looking for some information - I gave him something to chew on. I figured he might try a couple of ideas - he'll figure out if certain things work for him or not. Sure I put my own "spin" or added information - for potential benefit to others, let me say that no one should assume what I wrote is what Brian or anyone else is saying - just a few golf swing ideas from me. I thought Robbohank had a good post also - only I wasn't sure what lowpoint he was talking about - if it was hands lowpoint I'd be fine with his last sentence, if it was clubhead lowpoint - that's not what I experience in my swing. Finally, for Jerry and everyone else - it would be much more effective if with your "waaaaayyyyy off and completely misunderstood the concept" - you made some specific references so others could learn. Although I appreciate your honest opinion.

 

[Mike O]

Thank you for taking the time and effort to answer my question. I am going to study your answer and I hope I can incorporate it into my swing.

You're welcome Jerry - as they say Buyer Beware - but we're all big boys here and ultimately you are the one making the decisions and deciding how to get better.

As a side note (not directed at you Jerry) makes me think that it's easy to get emotional about following some "expert's" advice and then when you find out that it was poor information that you worked on so hard, you want to slam them. When you sit back and think about it - the responsibility is yours - and out of all the information available - you chose to listen to that expert.

 

[TeeAce]

Nice stuff TeeAce. Can I ask a couple of questions about these points?

Have you formed any views as to what causes a player to arrive at impact with too much shaft lean or too steep an angle of attack?

Now we go to my opinions and not the measured data, even of course that has something to do with measurements.

i think many players try to swing too much on line. They are pulling the handle toward the ball and try to come to the ball from straight line. It's great to hit it about from the straight line, but without trying to do so. Yep... sounds weird, but I'd like the club head arrive much inside and just reach the straight line just before impact. Maybe 2-3 inches before and by rotation. Let's say as much inside as possible relative to Your body and as straight as possible to the target line.

All good ball strikers I have measured drops their club head much behind their back and on the half way down, the shaft is about 90 degrees cross the target line. And from there they just drag the club face and the whole club around them. There isn't any move or pull toward the ball.

I think watching face on videos has made some bad to many golfers, because missing the depth of the movement You miss the most relevant thing. When watching 2D video from face on, the picture in peoples mind says the swing is around the horizontal axis. "Around the fixed hub" like Cochran & Stobbs told us at 60's. What will happen if You start to think it from the view that we don't normally see; from the top down? Quite soon You will notice You automatically drop the head more inside and You go more around. You don't try to do anything toward the target, You go low and left instead at impact. That will give You more shallow approach and hands more ahead of the face without big forward lean... damn I should make video some day about this It's so complicated to explain by writing.

But as conclusion I think it's the mind set. To change something in Our swing, we first have to think it different way. Muscles newer accept to do something which is against our mind says.

About the force across the shaft I haven't have time to make it really clear to myself what it means, but from this point

the shaft turns about 180 degrees to the impact, and from top down view, thats quite pure circle from the club head. Most of the average players are pulling the handle toward the ball from this point and cutting inside of that circle, when these better players make it with rotation.

I hope I more cleared it out than confused... not really sure myself

 

[Richard the Nerd]

Now we go to my opinions and not the measured data, even of course that has something to do with measurements.

i think many players try to swing too much on line. They are pulling the handle toward the ball and try to come to the ball from straight line. It's great to hit it about from the straight line, but without trying to do so. Yep... sounds weird, but I'd like the club head arrive much inside and just reach the straight line just before impact. Maybe 2-3 inches before and by rotation. Let's say as much inside as possible relative to Your body and as straight as possible to the target line.

All good ball strikers I have measured drops their club head much behind their back and on the half way down, the shaft is about 90 degrees cross the target line. And from there they just drag the club face and the whole club around them. There isn't any move or pull toward the ball.

I think watching face on videos has made some bad to many golfers, because missing the depth of the movement You miss the most relevant thing. When watching 2D video from face on, the picture in peoples mind says the swing is around the horizontal axis. "Around the fixed hub" like Cochran & Stobbs told us at 60's. What will happen if You start to think it from the view that we don't normally see; from the top down? Quite soon You will notice You automatically drop the head more inside and You go more around. You don't try to do anything toward the target, You go low and left instead at impact. That will give You more shallow approach and hands more ahead of the face without big forward lean... damn I should make video some day about this It's so complicated to explain by writing.

But as conclusion I think it's the mind set. To change something in Our swing, we first have to think it different way. Muscles newer accept to do something which is against our mind says.

About the force across the shaft I haven't have time to make it really clear to myself what it means, but from this point

the shaft turns about 180 degrees to the impact, and from top down view, thats quite pure circle from the club head. Most of the average players are pulling the handle toward the ball from this point and cutting inside of that circle, when these better players make it with rotation.

I hope I more cleared it out than confused... not really sure myself

Interesting....in the down the line shot is that a "look" or "position" that would be considered "model" or "good" in your opinion?

 

[TeeAce]

Interesting....in the down the line shot is that a "look" or "position" that would be considered "model" or "good" in your opinion?

I'd like to see his hand's bit more closer to the target line, about here

but the relevant point is the shaft is quite low and still perpendicular to target line from top down view.

And about hands...if he has rotated little bit more, his hands will be more out. So it's not only about hands, it's whole body positioning.

 

[dbl]

Richard, to your question in post 1387, that pic sure looks like the classic reverse tumble, so......wouldn't the appropriateness of it or it good being good/bad for swing A, B, C.. relate more to the intention, the plan, and the carrying out more than just one answer can give?

It'd be bad for my swing as I can't tumble late fast enough.

If you are asking 'for a swing with lots of reverse tumble, what does that imply about hands closer to the release interval?'...imo, that'd be a fair question.

ETA: I see Tee has answered.... can only guess that he did so for a swing entrenched in the reverse tumble. Note his preference for coordination with the body, which is an impact/closing preference he stated earlier.

 

[Richard the Nerd]

I'd like to see his hand's bit more closer to the target line, about here

but the relevant point is the shaft is quite low and still perpendicular to target line from top down view.

And about hands...if he has rotated little bit more, his hands will be more out. So it's not only about hands, it's whole body positioning.

Why is the above "shaft low and still perpendicular to the target line from top down view" "fundamental"? Interested.....

 

[TeeAce]

Why is the above "shaft low and still perpendicular to the target line from top down view" "fundamental"? Interested.....

Someone may see it different, but I think it gives us the right image about the direction how the whole club is moving and what are the directions of the forces; around the vertical axis. And that actually confirms Brian's thought about normal and not to put force across the shaft.

Thanks for asking. It made things much more clear to me when had to think the answer. Only big rotational force from the ground up and pulling force (centripetal force) to keep it on arc. Everything else is just to fool Our eyes.

 

[BertramSterling]

As per the tumble thread, it would also keep the hands close inside, give more time to square the face, and result in a lie angle at impact more like the one established at address..

You should take a look over there TeeAce, if you haven't already. I think the thread is called something like "Sergio Garcia and the tumble". Lots of similarities with what you are saying.

 

[Robbohank]

Wulsy,
Jerry was looking for some information - I gave him something to chew on. I figured he might try a couple of ideas - he'll figure out if certain things work for him or not. Sure I put my own "spin" or added information - for potential benefit to others, let me say that no one should assume what I wrote is what Brian or anyone else is saying - just a few golf swing ideas from me. I thought Robbohank had a good post also - only I wasn't sure what lowpoint he was talking about - if it was hands lowpoint I'd be fine with his last sentence

To clarify I was talking about hands lowpoint.

Prior to the "how-to info" coming out, having others communicate the "feels" that are working for them MIGHT help someone else. Let's face it, not many on these forums are afraid of a little experimentation. But.... without really knowing where both participants in those exchanges are coming from in terms of their golf swings it's certainly a bit of a crap shoot.

Probably stating the obvious here.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here are some answers to chew on:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/30409069?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="490" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

 

[Precis1on]

I registered just to post about "The Release" .

I was working on some of this tonight, mainly because this feels like how you should swing. It's absolutely natural. I had been working on "swinging down the line" and "holding the lag". Well no more.

One of my swing faults that I discovered while working on the Downswing and Follow-through was that I wasn't getting my left shoulder high enough on impact, and as part of my shoulder being low, my left arm was not close enough to the body. I partially blame trying so hard to swing "down the line" and "releasing to the right".

So the swing thought that I added was to get that left armpit up (consequently bringing my left shoulder upward). This swing thought occurs AFTER my hands start the downswing. Not only does this get my left shoulder up and keep my left arm close, it also caused me to swing LEFT over the ball.

So thoughts... Hands start and then Armpit up. Also for those people who are transitioning from S&T... don't bump the hip.

(and now to watch above video)

 

[footwedge]

post #1326 Page 133

 

[Basher Ry]

Very interesting, I used to hit the ball sideways right and straight up in the air (with a driver) when I tried to delay the release as much as I physically could, which I thought was the correct move.(Handle dragging to the extreme). I used to wonder why the game felt so easy when someone got me to stand with my feet together and swing my arms. Killed it. Now I know, thanks guys.

 

[welshdentist]

<---- runs to car and is off to golf club to use plane board

 

[wulsy]

I think it may be a good idea after 140 pages to reveal why the left wrist has to bend.

 

[Kevin Shields]

My review would be:

To avoid hanging on
To keep the clubhead releasing and freewheeling
To keep the face square to path
As to do the opposite as the downswing
To shallow out the divot
To help make the club go "normal"

Im sure Brian could correct or add to this

 

[Dariusz J.]

I think it may be a good idea after 140 pages to reveal why the left wrist has to bend.

Because it is a natural reaction for exerted forces, because it is predictable (what was said in the new video !), because it is not against one's subconscious mind.

Cheers