The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Matt Bryda]

Tee,

Thanks for the graphs and your explanations.

How is the target line determined?

 

[wulsy]

Palmar flexion is bowing and it's opposite to dorsal flexion. Pronating is rotation of the forearm, not bending the wrist like Hogan figured. Iw the hand is foot, then his terms match, but it's not. So supination is rotating the forearm outwards and pronation inwards. Without any other moves supination rotates face close and pronation opens it. PF is also closing the face a bit but not rotating the shaft. It's more forward leaning term.

Yep, then I understood you correctly.

And we got measurement called "path" It's always the distance from the target line at the objects height. Red is hands and blue one is club head and when it's at black line, it's on the target line. When its upside of that, it's inside of the target line.

Interesting how much the club head comes from the inside. And that it moves inside after impact at a slower rate than it did moving into impact.

It would also appear that the clubhead starts to move out towards the target line BEFORE the hands start to move away.

 

[TeeAce]

Tee,

Thanks for the graphs and your explanations.

How is the target line determined?

You find those few round spots of the 3Dscene I posted (at least those two at the down edge) and target line is parallel to those points. So this indoor thing makes it little too easy for the player with that assistant lining, but our main interest is on how the body moves and how the joints move relative to each other. Nowadays we also got radar back there, so we can say something about the ball flight also.

 

[TeeAce]

Yep, then I understood you correctly.



Interesting how much the club head comes from the inside. And that it moves inside after impact at a slower rate than it did moving into impact.

It would also appear that the clubhead starts to move out towards the target line BEFORE the hands start to move away.

For sure they do, but interesting thing is just after transition. The club head moves quite much away from the target line. Nothing is pulled on plane. It drops behind Your back first and stays there quite long.

That move also creates big 2D illusion about lag. Have heard hundreds of times how Hogan and Sergio has to have really flexible wrists to add that much lag. Lag doesn't increase much! The illusion starts because left arm is still pointing upward and when left forearm pronates (flattens the shaft) from face on view You will see that angle increasing. Right amount of increasing is between 2-5 degrees. No more.

 

[JEREMY5577]

For sure they do, but interesting thing is just after transition. The club head moves quite much away from the target line. Nothing is pulled on plane. It drops behind Your back first and stays there quite long.

That move also creates big 2D illusion about lag. Have heard hundreds of times how Hogan and Sergio has to have really flexible wrists to add that much lag. Lag doesn't increase much! The illusion starts because left arm is still pointing upward and when left forearm pronates (flattens the shaft) from face on view You will see that angle increasing. Right amount of increasing is between 2-5 degrees. No more.

Super interesting Tee. Yet another reason not to worry about the illusion of lag.

 

[TeeAce]

Super interesting Tee. Yet another reason not to worry about the illusion of lag.

I'm still worried Brian will throw me out if I continue, but there is so much to talk about

First of all, what can be quite surprising, all players I have measure shows that hand speed got 99% correlation with club head speed. And I mean that absolute hand speed how we measure it, not the one toward the target. And the actual thing is hand speeds maximum speed, when ever it's reached in swing. Normally it's about the point where they change direction from top down move to more horizontal move and wrist angle starts to release. Those players who try to actively release the club (speed up the club head with wrists and arms muscles) loose more hand speed and the speed of the whole club is decreasing, even if the club head seems to speed up.

There is numerous of things that has effect to hand speed, but one of those is lag, if we see it as wrist angle. And that just goes to the laws of physics. Further away from the centre of rotation the object is, more it will slow down the inner circle. So to get high hand speed, keep the club face close to You. But after that point (about left thigh) You can't get any help from lag. So there is no meaning to hold it. And before that... the acceleration of the hands are taking care about lag if needed. And.. yes, I have measured also quite bad swings with real casting, and they don't have speed in hands or club head.

I think, and hope I'm right, that Brian and his folks are talking about decent players swing and lag as an "dragging the handle to the ball" I haven't seen really good players doing that. Many different ways, but no one is dragging the butt to the ball really. Rotational players drop the head behind them and more handy players are letting it drop and rotates face to the ball earlier. But I don't believe they are dragging the hands toward the target laterally or holding lag.

As my opinion, I would try to keep hands moving as fast as possible (in my way by pivot) and just let the release happen. There is no meaning to hold it or make it happen. It will happen because of forces.

 

[scorekeeper]

I would like to thank Dariusz for his endorsement of TeeAce.....good stuff...

 

[Richard the Nerd]

Maybe.

BUT YOU AREN'T PUTTING ANY FORCE ON THE SHAFT!!!!! Unless you want to waste some force.

Lag is a fairy tale.



"The clubhead is accelerating on the downswing, during which the clubhead moves in front of the shaft (shaft bowing forward). Because the clubhead is in front of the shaft and the shaft is also bending downward, four characteristics change in the club compared to the address position. First, the clubheads loft is increased. Second, the face angle closes. Third, the lie of the club flattens. Fourth, the length of the club actually shortens because the shaft is bent in basically two directions." —Ralph Maltby

Cool with me....I was just trying to define "flip"....

 

[Richard the Nerd]

I think it depends how You see it. The handle can bee much ahead of the ball and still no much forward lean. I know it seems funny to say like that, but there is also other directions than toward the target.

Brian: Is it Ok to post some graphs here from my 3D measurements?

Fair enough...but I was talking about sweetspot in relation to handle....I certainly don't have any 3-D measuring devices other than my belt ....just trying to flesh it out...if you got stats...I got nothing 'cept for cheetoz and poptarts.

 

[TeeAce]

Fair enough...but I was talking about sweetspot in relation to handle....I certainly don't have any 3-D measuring devices other than my belt ....just trying to flesh it out...if you got stats...I got nothing 'cept for cheetoz and poptarts.

For sure handle and sweet spot (or the ch generally). What I tried to clear out, is that it's complicated because they don't move to the same direction. If You watch it from 2D screen they both seem to move toward the target, which they don't do.

 

[Richard the Nerd]

For sure handle and sweet spot (or the ch generally). What I tried to clear out, is that it's complicated because they don't move to the same direction. If You watch it from 2D screen they both seem to move toward the target, which they don't do.

In your studies/data does "plane angle" have any connection to efficiency? Or does it matter? Or is that a stoopid way to think about it? Is there any relationship to the movement/displacement/speed of the clubhead to the point when the hands and shoulders "line up" in the downswing?

Thanks!

 

[birly-shirly]

[...]
I think, and hope I'm right, that Brian and his folks are talking about decent players swing and lag as an "dragging the handle to the ball" I haven't seen really good players doing that. Many different ways, but no one is dragging the butt to the ball really. Rotational players drop the head behind them and more handy players are letting it drop and rotates face to the ball earlier. But I don't believe they are dragging the hands toward the target laterally or holding lag.

As my opinion, I would try to keep hands moving as fast as possible (in my way by pivot) and just let the release happen. There is no meaning to hold it or make it happen. It will happen because of forces.

Nice stuff TeeAce. Can I ask a couple of questions about these points?

Have you formed any views as to what causes a player to arrive at impact with too much shaft lean or too steep an angle of attack?

Also, you say that the release will just happen. By that, I think you mean that the force exerted by the hands on the club throughout the downswing is a pull in the direction of the shaft. Like Mandrin's graph at post 1251. But I think that Brian is saying that there's evidence that this sort of force can only account for something like 60% of the clubhead speed found in a good swing, and that the balance requires the application of force across the shaft earlier in the downswing, although all force is along the shaft by impact. Any thoughts on this?

 

[footwedge]

Lag



Unless you really know what you are doing - there are alot of ideas, concepts and discussions in this thread that could really get a player working on the wrong things - buyer beware. Now, the good thing about this thread is it's creating a situation where definitions not only need to be clear but also redefined. For example, a lot of people are going to interpret creating lag or not creating lag in a number of different ways- all leading to different end results. For example there is a geometrical lag - i.e. clubhead trailing hands at certain points in the swing. Then you have lag as a concept in sensing inertia as you accelerate an object. You may sense that inertia in pulling on an object or pushing on an object. Then you have issues regarding where you might sense this inertia on your body and at what periods or points in your golf movment you would experience it. Then you have issues in regards to perception and intention- where even if things exist it doesn't mean that you are aware of them or focus on them. It's not my role here to break out all of those concepts into detail - but you'll only be as good in the implementation of these ideas on this thread and in your golf movement - based on the clarity of your definitions and understanding of these concepts.

So it's like Maltby's "the lie gets flatter with shaft droop", different people will get different ideas depending on what enters their head for the answer to the "Lie of what?" The sole of the club? The angle of the shaft? Same thing with lag - what exactly are you referring to - a shaft bowing to the target?, a bent right wrist?, a clubhead trailing the hands?, a clubshaft angled 90 degrees to the left arm?, sensing inertia of the golf club with the hands?, sensing limbs accelerated by the pivot?, and what portion or periods of the golf movement are you referencing for whatever one of these items that you are referring to? And on and on and .......

To me what I see happening here - is some really good concepts surrounded by confusion, which eventually will be worked through, defined, and differentiated in a much more precise way. For example taking lag as one example: lag or your perception of lag isn't a fairy tale - it's real - the questions are What is it? Do you want to create it?, Do you focus on it?, if so when? where?, how?, etc. etc.

Jerry has lag in his swing. He doesn't have to create or worry about something he already has. How and when he dispenses it is a different matter.

 

[jerry1967]

I take it everybody has lag in their swing but the problem is when to dispense it.
Ok what would be a good thought to dispense it at the right time?

 

[footwedge]

I take it everybody has lag in their swing but the problem is when to dispense it.
Ok what would be a good thought to dispense it at the right time?[/QUOTE


Try this.


Charlie Brown and the Golf Swing on Vimeo


Some Coupling Point Path Answers on Vimeo

 

[lia41985]

TeeAce: Loving your contributions. Welcome!

 

[Mike O]

I take it everybody has lag in their swing but the problem is when to dispense it.
Ok what would be a good thought to dispense it at the right time?

Footwedge, I appreciate the reply.

Jerry,
I'll give you a quick answer even though I'm not sure what you are asking nor have I seen you swing.
From the top you are going to bring your hands(coupling point) down to it's lowest position - you've retained geometrical lag i.e. you have made no effort to release angles nor have you done anything to create power - little to no sense of inertia of the club etc. Basically you sense your hands are lower than they normally are and you are going to run the clubhead into the ground- problem!!!! The coupling point is going to move up from there no matter what - no consciouls effort to move it up - but you can help this clubhead from not slamming into the ground by having a feeling of hitting up with the right wrist - now you'll be releasing the geometrical lag but just beginning the large sense of inertia - let's call it the physical lag - you creating leverage with the right wrist applying force to hit up. If you do it right - the club still takes a divot after the ball but the effort was up, like trying to pull up on a plane that's going to crash into the mountain.

Depending how you have swung before - there's a couple of major differences. If you felt like you generated power during the first half of the downswing most of your life and the second half was more or less riding along- maintaining, then this is going to be just the opposite, no power the first half and then all the power the second half. That's where you'll understand quotes from Johnny Miller or Jamie Sadlowski where they say the don't do anything until release and then they pour it on. Secondly, if you've felt like you generated power during the first half of the downswing - especially with pivot rotation - that's where you get the left arm kept across the chest, and the right arm stays more bent. When the right arm is bent significantly enough - you can't use your right wrist to power the club. So, in this swing as you just position your hands at the lowest point with not much effort- the right arm is slightly straighter than your previously swing - which puts you in an anatomical position to use the right wrist to power the shot through. Now, you are essentially tying together the right wrist power with the upward motion of the coupling point. Start with a 9 iron and do it slow until you need to pour it on.

And you guys thought I wasn't paying attention to this thread!

One final thought for Brian Manzella - regarding the coupling point video on vimeo that footwedge referenced. Send me $50 and I won't direct your wife to the video where she can see and hear her husband banging/hitting her nice wood floor with a golf club. PM me and I'll provide my new mailing address.

 

[Robbohank]

Footwedge, I appreciate the reply.

Jerry,
I'll give you a quick answer even though I'm not sure what you are asking nor have I seen you swing.
From the top you are going to bring your hands(coupling point) down to it's lowest position - you've retained geometrical lag i.e. you have made no effort to release angles nor have you done anything to create power - little to no sense of inertia of the club etc. Basically you sense your hands are lower than they normally are and you are going to run the clubhead into the ground- problem!!!!

I can tell you that the above was what Brian spent the better part of 4 hours getting me NOT to do. As with all things golf-swing where you're coming from is very important and buyer-beware when it comes to internet advice.

Feel vs real regarding this move can be very confusing. It could be just me, but if I don't feel any clubhead inertia prior to low point then I'm gonna drag it all right across the ball.

 

[wulsy]

Mike O, IMO your post describing the release ideas in this thread is waaaayyyyy off. You have completely misunderstood the concept. JMHO. Robbohank puts it nicely.

 

[jerry1967]

Footwedge, I appreciate the reply.

Jerry,
I'll give you a quick answer even though I'm not sure what you are asking nor have I seen you swing.
From the top you are going to bring your hands(coupling point) down to it's lowest position - you've retained geometrical lag i.e. you have made no effort to release angles nor have you done anything to create power - little to no sense of inertia of the club etc. Basically you sense your hands are lower than they normally are and you are going to run the clubhead into the ground- problem!!!! The coupling point is going to move up from there no matter what - no consciouls effort to move it up - but you can help this clubhead from not slamming into the ground by having a feeling of hitting up with the right wrist - now you'll be releasing the geometrical lag but just beginning the large sense of inertia - let's call it the physical lag - you creating leverage with the right wrist applying force to hit up. If you do it right - the club still takes a divot after the ball but the effort was up, like trying to pull up on a plane that's going to crash into the mountain.

Depending how you have swung before - there's a couple of major differences. If you felt like you generated power during the first half of the downswing most of your life and the second half was more or less riding along- maintaining, then this is going to be just the opposite, no power the first half and then all the power the second half. That's where you'll understand quotes from Johnny Miller or Jamie Sadlowski where they say the don't do anything until release and then they pour it on. Secondly, if you've felt like you generated power during the first half of the downswing - especially with pivot rotation - that's where you get the left arm kept across the chest, and the right arm stays more bent. When the right arm is bent significantly enough - you can't use your right wrist to power the club. So, in this swing as you just position your hands at the lowest point with not much effort- the right arm is slightly straighter than your previously swing - which puts you in an anatomical position to use the right wrist to power the shot through. Now, you are essentially tying together the right wrist power with the upward motion of the coupling point. Start with a 9 iron and do it slow until you need to pour it on.

And you guys thought I wasn't paying attention to this thread!

One final thought for Brian Manzella - regarding the coupling point video on vimeo that footwedge referenced. Send me $50 and I won't direct your wife to the video where she can see and hear her husband banging/hitting her nice wood floor with a golf club. PM me and I'll provide my new mailing address.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to answer my question. I am going to study your answer and I hope I can incorporate it into my swing.