The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Mike O]

Maltby

"The clubhead is accelerating on the downswing, during which the clubhead moves in front of the shaft (shaft bowing forward). Because the clubhead is in front of the shaft and the shaft is also bending downward, four characteristics change in the club compared to the address position. First, the clubheads loft is increased. Second, the face angle closes. Third, the lie of the club flattens. Fourth, the length of the club actually shortens because the shaft is bent in basically two directions." —Ralph Maltby

Maybe I'm not looking at this correctly - but wouldn't the lie of the club become steeper.

 

[TeeAce]

Brian Manzella;201631]<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mfDasDW1RbM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>[/QUOTE]

So to confirm the video I have made lot of 3D measurements of players and there is full range of them starting from european tour winners, some other pros and lot of hundreds of amateurs of different levels. Unfortunately I can't use top players with images cause I don't got their permission for that, but here You can see one of my players graph of the hands height and where he got his lowest point.

http://teeace.kapsi.fi/alupandleft.jpg[/IMG]

Where we can see that hands are not only reaching their lowest point quite early, but they reach also their "out" point early and their direction is way left at impact.

That gives us more to think about.

The blue line is the most common way to measure hand speed and it's toward the target. It really seems to slow down a lot and in the Video it's said that club head accelerates about 4 times more than the hands. That's not really the truth, because hands are decelerating in every measurement of good players (for me it was a surprise that not with higher handicaps)
But what is the interesting part is that how much they decelerate and how it's measured.

The red line is our basic measurement of hand speed and it tells the absolute speed of the left wrist. I mean that that speed has now direction, it's the total movement in time in 3 dimension world. You all can see the difference is huge between those two ways and the explanation is pure geometry. When the left wrist starts to move (even about 35-40 degrees) to the left, it's speed toward the target decreases.

But my main reason was to confirm that all good players I've seen has their left wrist low point about on right thigh and they start to rise after that.

Thanks for reading and if You have any questions I'm willing to post more about 3D truth.

edit: shouldn't do in hurry, but the quote should be the video from the first page.

 

[wulsy]

Mike O, club that are too flat produce toe deep divots. This droop/downwards bending of the shaft produces theoretically a toe deep divot, so the club has effectively been made flatter. That's how I read it anyway...

 

[jerry1967]

Lag is a fairy tale.

Lag is the RESULT of a proper "release

Can someone tell me what Brian means by these two sentences?

 

[footwedge]

Lag is a fairy tale.

Lag is the RESULT of a proper "release


Can someone tell me what Brain means by these two sentences?

Lag is an effect created by not trying to hold an angle but actually trying to get rid of the angle. Look at any major league pitcher's arm in delivery of a fastball, and you will see a crazy looking lag angle, but I guarantee you they are not trying to make that angle, they are trying to throw the ball as fast as they can, getting rid of it not holding on to it. The camera lies in a sense, It doesn't tell what the person is trying to do. It can't capture intent.

 

[jeffy]

Might that not allow a forward leaning shaft? You may have to slide a foot or more with some of the flippers I've seen. In your previous post you cited Westwood, Kymer, et. al., as flipping, yet they all show forward leaning shafts at impact and are all obviously very accomplished players. I would not call their releases flips as their release must be well timed with some forward lean in the shaft or they would not be as accomplished as they are.

Call it a "pro flip" release then. The point I was making is that some great players do, in fact, flip. They just don't roll at all, like most hackers that flip: that's why they can be very accurate. Others stigmatized the term "flipper".

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy,
I'm not following you at all - that's not a good thing or bad thing - just not sure where you are coming from in regards to the definition of flip. I can clearly see what Brian and Dariuz are talking about - For purposes of this discussion I'm going to start with an even more basic definition and say a flip is any iron shot hit off the ground with a backward leaning grip (that rubber thing that you hang on to ) - per that definition I would definitely say that Lee Westwood is not flipping. Now how do you define a flip in the Lee Westwood sequence where there is a forward leaning shaft at impact? I'm just concerned that Dariuz may cut his wrists if we don't get this flushed out soon

I think Dariuz is wedded to a belief that Henry Cotton was right: that among good players there are only three types of releases: what Cotton called push, roll and slap/hinge. In fact, there are several more, including a flip or "pro flip" by some. The players I listed do, in fact, flip: the left wrist is bent at impact. That is a flip. Since they are world-class players, they have found a way to do this with a forward leaning shaft at impact. Nevertheless, it is still a flip.

There are plenty others who have a flat wrist at impact but flip immediately after impact, but that release is different from a pro flip. I assume Dariuz would call this style of release a slap/hinge, others call it an "underflip".

 

[jerry1967]

Lag is a fairy tale.

Lag is an effect created by not trying to hold an angle but actually trying to get rid of the angle. Look at any major league pitcher's arm in delivery of a fastball, and you will see a crazy looking lag angle, but I guarantee you they are not trying to make that angle, they are trying to throw the ball as fast as they can, getting rid of it not holding on to it. The camera lies in a sense, It doesn't tell what the person is trying to do. It can't capture intent.

Thank you for the answer but there is actually lag in the pitcher's arm right? He might not be trying to hold the lag but he wants lag to happen doesn't he? Doesn't this hold true for the golfer? He might create lag but at some point he wants to lose the lag? So does the golfer want to create lag?

 

[Martee]

My 2 cents as I am still pondering ‘Lag’. What I got from all this including looking at the images is:

A line between the center of the butt of shaft through the center of the coupling point could be label as the ‘static shaft line’.

Approaching and at Impact the club head should be leading a ‘bowed’ shaft and will be leading or ahead of the static shaft line.

So long as the ‘static shaft line’ is still approaching vertical into or at impact, then the shaft (static shaft line) would exhibit a forward lean. This as I see it would be the Hands Leading, the Shaft Lagging (note my definition of lagging is probably not conventional, but the shaft would be trailing the hands is my point). At issue of ‘Hands Leading’ may be the extension of the hands from the top toward the ball, etc. Just my guess.

If the ‘static shaft line’ is leaning backwards going into or at impact, this would an indication of ‘Flipping’.

If the club head is behind the ‘static shaft line’ then this would be an indication of force manipulation across the shaft (I think that is correct wording) and what many would label as holding off the release, holding the lag, result of frozen right wrist and probably many others right or wrong.

This is a primary point in this concept that is significant. If I understand some of the numbers and comments, this would rob the golfer of power. Also it would require the golfer to have a different alignment to achieve desired results in ball flight. I think what I am being told is that less is more, less forced or manipulation can result in better results, which would make me a happier golfer.

 

[softconsult]

Clear descriptions are difficult. Terms like "Bowing", or "Drooping" are used as if the reader somehow knows what that means. Of terms like "Away" without describing away from what.

So my understanding of Maltby saying that shaft is bowing forward, is that he actually means the shaft itself is bending backwards, i. e. the grip end and the clubhead are ahead (towards the target) of the portion of the shaft that is bent. That's the opposite of what you would think in the Bowing of an actual Bow as in Bow and Arrow. The same is true of droop. Shaft is bent up with the grip and the head lower than the bent shaft. Thus the toe of the clubhead flattens slightly.

 

[footwedge]

Thank you for the answer but there is actually lag in the pitcher's arm right? He might not be trying to hold the lag but he wants lag to happen doesn't he? Doesn't this hold true for the golfer? He might create lag but at some point he wants to lose the lag? So does the golfer want to create lag?

If you do it right you won't and shouldn't have to worry about lag ever again. I never in a sec. of golfing worried about lag or throwing any kind of ball or playing lacrosse or hockey or any sport. It's an effect. work on all the effects and drive yourself crazy.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Jeffy,

Cotton's classification is the simplest and, therefore, best I've known because it describes what is the corelation between what happens with the wrists and what happens with the clubhead in 3-D reality. It either stays square to the arc in 3-D (push) or changes its position horizontally (crossover) or vertically (slap-hinge). Sure, some pros may start to lose the angle of the wrist sooner than impact but still not soon enough and not to big degree enough to call it a flip (an error). IMHO.
Of course, one may create a subcategories for Cotton's clasification, and I think it would be good, but also I think we still will need to refer to the three basic patterns simply because there is no other options left in this context. The rest is just introducing a 4th dimension (time) into patterns.
BTW, good post, Mike O.

Cheers

 

[TeeAce]

Sorry if I confuse some people, but my meaning is to point out some things that seems to be simple in 2D but can change a lot when we
add the 3rd and 4th (time) there.

First image is traditional view as face on for the relation of the left wrist and club head

We can see that ch passes hands right after impact so we can call it about flipping. I don't put the graph here, but can tell You the ch is moving quite straight toward the target at that shot.

Second image is from bird eye view and we can see relative to the rotation, it passes the hands much much later.

There is different type of players, but we have to remember all the time that we have to know more about that move than can easily be seen. In this case the player takes his hands so much to the left, that it seems there is no forward lean, even when the ch stays much behind the hands through impact.

So when talking about ch passing the hands, we should be really carefully with definitions which way we mean it. Specially when we connect that to the learning process and what player should do.

One warning about face on pictures from magazines: They got worst possible cameras to take those shots. The shutter mechanism of those cameras are rolling from top to down, and the lowest line pixels are created much after those which are at the center of the picture. I don't say there is no forward bent sometimes, but it's nothing like in Golf Digest sequences for example.

 

[natep]

Could you clarify what we're looking at in that graph?

What is the red line and blue line? What is the horizontal black line?

What do the x-axis and y-axis represent?

 

[Martee]

Clear descriptions are difficult. Terms like "Bowing", or "Drooping" are used as if the reader somehow knows what that means. Of terms like "Away" without describing away from what.

So my understanding of Maltby saying that shaft is bowing forward, is that he actually means the shaft itself is bending backwards, i. e. the grip end and the clubhead are ahead (towards the target) of the portion of the shaft that is bent. That's the opposite of what you would think in the Bowing of an actual Bow as in Bow and Arrow. The same is true of droop. Shaft is bent up with the grip and the head lower than the bent shaft. Thus the toe of the clubhead flattens slightly.

You have it right.

Post 886 on pg 89 provides an image of the club head positions. At the top series the Toe Down would = Droop, the bottom series Lead = Bow.

Golf loves it own labels, keeps you on your toes...Hope this helps

 

[TeeAce]

Could you clarify what we're looking at in that graph?

What is the red line and blue line? What is the horizontal black line?

What do the x-axis and y-axis represent?

For sure... doing many things at same time and no too clear..

So the strong black line is always zero line and it depends what we are looking for what the zero means.

At the first graph it's ball position. So when the curved lines are over it the object is closer to the target than original ball position was at that shot. The red line is left wrist and the blue is club head. So that You must think as face on view.

On the second it's also the ball position, but now we are watching from top down and the graph is showing degrees of rotation, red still being left wrist and blue as the club head.

It's putty I can't get the numbers there which are my main focus when checking differences between players, but I think that can give some idea how it changes when we look it different ways.

So in first image the club head is passing the hands about right at impact when watching face on view, but same shot from top down tells that in rotation hands are leading much longer.

I hope I made it more clear.

 

[softconsult]

TeeAce, if you goal is to clearly communicate, then you really need to do a better job of labeling the axis of your charts.
I looked at them and they are as clear as mud to me.

 

[natep]

For sure... doing many things at same time and no too clear..

So the strong black line is always zero line and it depends what we are looking for what the zero means.

At the first graph it's ball position. So when the curved lines are over it the object is closer to the target than original ball position was at that shot. The red line is left wrist and the blue is club head. So that You must think as face on view.

On the second it's also the ball position, but now we are watching from top down and the graph is showing degrees of rotation, red still being left wrist and blue as the club head.

It's putty I can't get the numbers there which are my main focus when checking differences between players, but I think that can give some idea how it changes when we look it different ways.

So in first image the club head is passing the hands about right at impact when watching face on view, but same shot from top down tells that in rotation hands are leading much longer.

I hope I made it more clear.

Yes, thanks.

 

[TeeAce]

TeeAce, if you goal is to clearly communicate, then you really need to do a better job of labeling the axis of your charts.
I looked at them and they are as clear as mud to me.

The problem is that I have to take them as screen captures and can't include the videos there. Also saved some place and didn't take the side margins there. And I know shouldn't do this while something else is going on but couldn't help myself to start. I hope my last message clears something up.

So few labels still:

Strong black line is always zero point. Doesn't change if we talk about speed, distance, path or orientations. Upside that it's positive values and under its negative. As orientations, upside is open, under is closed. Orientation in our language is around one fixed point in upper torso and measured around that vertical axis.
First red vertical line is transition and the other is hit.
Positive values are upside of the black line and negative under it
From left to right it's time as in frames. We got 170 fps videos to do it so one frame is 0,00588 seconds.

Sorry this confusing way to put it out but my meaning is really to communicate. Please feel free to ask more if I still forget something.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Sorry if I confuse some people, but my meaning is to point out some things that seems to be simple in 2D but can change a lot when we
add the 3rd and 4th (time) there.

First image is traditional view as face on for the relation of the left wrist and club head

We can see that ch passes hands right after impact so we can call it about flipping. I don't put the graph here, but can tell You the ch is moving quite straight toward the target at that shot.

Second image is from bird eye view and we can see relative to the rotation, it passes the hands much much later.

There is different type of players, but we have to remember all the time that we have to know more about that move than can easily be seen. In this case the player takes his hands so much to the left, that it seems there is no forward lean, even when the ch stays much behind the hands through impact.

So when talking about ch passing the hands, we should be really carefully with definitions which way we mean it. Specially when we connect that to the learning process and what player should do.

One warning about face on pictures from magazines: They got worst possible cameras to take those shots. The shutter mechanism of those cameras are rolling from top to down, and the lowest line pixels are created much after those which are at the center of the picture. I don't say there is no forward bent sometimes, but it's nothing like in Golf Digest sequences for example.

It's great to see you there, Tee. Gents, pay attention to what he says and I mean it. He may be very helpful in your scientific trip with his equipment and discoveries.

Cheers